Need reality check here

[Spazz]

Alright heres the deal. I talk wrestling on the internet a lot and as of lately Chris Beniot keeps coming up. They talk about his great matches and how great he was and it makes me go off like a rocket. Like think about what happens when someone says gun around here. I have the same reaction to people singing Benoits praises.

Am I right that no matter how awesome a fucker is once they cross that line cheering for them makes you a scumbag.

Or are they right that you can seperate Benoit the wrestler from Benoit the man and what he did to his family has no bearing on what he did in the ring?

Anyway thats the question am I a dick for baggin on dudes who talk bout Benoit as a legend or are they right thats its ok to be a fan of his work ?

[Jay]

It's entirely possible to respect someone's talent separately from their personality and other actions. Any atrocious acts he committed don't change what he did in and for the pro wrestling world. If Michael Jordan blew up a bus full of nuns, he'd still be arguably the greatest basketball player of all time and a nun murdering piece of shit.

[Spazz]

I just have a hard time with it. I used to love to watch him snap the suplexes and his muscle man walk but I get no joy out of watching it now only angry. I would also argue that what Jordan did was a sport and benoit is an entertainer. I dont think we can scrub him from history books but I dont think we have to give him a trophy or a cookie either.

Its just one of those subjects that when it comes up I find myself getting heated.

Yall know me im not some uptight bible thumper im pretty tolerant of all types of bad behavior but I cant even see the man without thinking about what he did and getting pissed.

Like by all accounts Shawn Michaels was a complete peice of shit but I can enjoy and always did enjoy his work and could separate the man from the character but he never crossed that line.

Nother guy I get really hostile about when he comes up is the super fly. He killed a chick and totally got away with it. On the other hand I dont hold the death of a man against Hall cuz it was a barfight and that dude attacked him.

I think in a lot of ways I dont want to know about entertainers and athletes cuz i find it hard to separate a man from his actions and find it hard to root for a scumfuck.

Last few years for example Hulk Hogan has shit all over my child hood.

[Ganzo]

It's entirely possible to respect someone's talent separately from their personality and other actions. Any atrocious acts he committed don't change what he did in and for the pro wrestling world. If Michael Jordan blew up a bus full of nuns, he'd still be arguably the greatest basketball player of all time and a nun murdering piece of shit.

Completely disagree with you there, once that line is crossed, everything you did prior is kind of unimportant and you will always be a psycho murdering scumbag, who also used to be in sports. You cannot separate person's actions from them.

[leah]

this is kind of like the dilemma with michael vick, no? people have a hard time separating his athletic skill from his bullshit dogfighting idiocy. (obviously i am not team vick here.)

[Zanchief]

I'm with Jay on this one. You can respect someone for their talent artistry without supporting the person. I do it with Polanski all the time.

[Tikker]

.

[Gypsiyee]

this is kind of like the dilemma with michael vick, no? people have a hard time separating his athletic skill from his bullshit dogfighting idiocy. (obviously i am not team vick here.)

this. and no, i can't really separate the talent from the person honestly, and that people can seems to be a phenomenon only associated with athletes. a genius pencil pusher who did the same wouldn't get the same respect for his tremendous brain talent.

[Kaemon]

If the glove don't fit...you must aquit.

That was a scumbag, but still a helluva running back for the Bills and still in the Hall of Fame.

[Jay]

I dunno for me, it's like this. Before his death Chris Benoit was an amazing wrestler and innovator. Good technical skill and overall future legend and hall of famer. After his death, he's a wife and child murderer who committed suicide and was also really good at wrestling. End of the day, fuck him, BUT, doesn't change the fact he was good at his craft.

Polanski is a great filmmaker. He also left the country to dodge child molestation charges. That doesn't suddenly make his films suck. I can understand if you choose to boycott his films and not support him, but his films are good. Now if what he's done skews your perception of his work, I totally understand that. I've definitely been more critical of people I didn't like. In art, it's easy to say someone sucked because art is interpretation, but in sports there are stats so no matter what Michael Jordan did he still commanded basketball in the 90's and has more trophies than I have fingers and toes.

[Zanchief]

Yea exactly. It's separate. It's not about justifying, it's just about separating the two. On one hand, OJ's a murderer, on the other hand he's an excellent football player. The two things can co-exist.

[Gypsiyee]

Everyone is good at something. Congrats on running really fast, being really strong, throwing a ball really far, or whatever else you're lucky enough to have been discovered for but being a worthless abusive murdering shitbag kind of overshadows that for me. The things can coexist, certainly, but I won't sing praises of the talents of a horrid individual. Everyone has talents. Everyone is great at something. Being great at something that happens to make you famous doesn't strike me with awe if the thing you're famous for is the only positive thing about you.

[Spazz]

Yea Gyps thats what Im sayin. I dont want anything to do with murderers and rapists thats my line and I dont cross it.

[Ganzo]

Everyone is good at something. Congrats on running really fast, being really strong, throwing a ball really far, or whatever else you're lucky enough to have been discovered for but being a worthless abusive murdering shitbag kind of overshadows that for me. The things can coexist, certainly, but I won't sing praises of the talents of a horrid individual. Everyone has talents. Everyone is great at something. Being great at something that happens to make you famous doesn't strike me with awe if the thing you're famous for is the only positive thing about you.

Full agreement

[Zanchief]

Let me put it a different way. On one hand you have objectivity, on the other hand you're filtering it based on your personal bias.

How you feel about them is irrelevant to their talent. You don't have to talk about them, or care about them, but that doesn't change their talent one iota.

[Spazz]

Yea it does. I really have a moral issue with enjoying the work of someone I feel is an absolute shit. Polansky, Benoit and Vick are all good examples of them. I dont care what they do I want watch it and I will think less of others who do. You dont get a free pass on doing horrible things just because you can make a good movie throw a ball or body slam someone. Ive never seen a single palansky movie you know why cuz hes a child raper and viewing his work condones what hes done. Why would you want to watch anything hes done knowing what hes done ? You buy the dvd whered the money go to ? Exactly. No free passes on being a scumbag just because of some talent you might have.

On one hand you have objectivity, on the other hand you're filtering it based on your personal bias.

Youve got to be fucking kidding me. My own personal bias? Yea dude I guess my hatred for those who Hurt and murder children was clouding my sense of objectivity. Fuck you.

[Zanchief]

We aren't talking about how good a person he is. Now I don't know anything about Chris Benoit, because I'm not a hillbilly redneck, but if he was a good wrestler before he killed his family, he was a good wrestler after. That's basic logic. If you think he was a bad wrestler after simply because of something he did, then yes, your bias.

[Arlos]

I swear, "Professional Wrestling" is by far and away the most homosexual thing ever put on TV that was accepted as mass "entertainment."

Think about it: It's one giant soap opera, with good guys, bad guys, scheming, backstabbing, etc. performed by large, half-naked, muscular men writhing around together on the ground as they grope each other.


Personally, I have never even remotely understood the appeal. Arguing whether someone was "the best" or "great" at it is utterly nonsensical, since the entire thing was scripted anyway.

-Arlos

[10sun]

I swear, "Professional Wrestling" is by far and away the most homosexual thing ever put on TV that was accepted as mass "entertainment."

Think about it: It's one giant soap opera, with good guys, bad guys, scheming, backstabbing, etc. performed by large, half-naked, muscular men writhing around together on the ground as they grope each other.


Personally, I have never even remotely understood the appeal. Arguing whether someone was "the best" or "great" at it is utterly nonsensical, since the entire thing was scripted anyway.

-Arlos

I don't see how that is homosexual.

[Zanchief]

The appeal is sweaty guys groping each other and rolling around together. It's super gay.

[Menelvir]

I have a difficult time separating my appreciation for an individual's outstanding abilities from my personal opinion of them, especially if they've done acts that are questionable/reprehensible. Even if they haven't, I find my enjoyment of their work can still be negatively affected by their publicly-stated dispositions and attitudes, if their positions are contrary to my own.

Based on this, I reasoned with myself that I would limit myself to reading the works of dead authors. Luckily, there's a surfeit of such work.

[Spazz]

Sometimes I really do think liberals are the most ignorant people on earth. Just cuz 2 dudes are near each other doesnt make it gay. Fighting and sex are 2 different things. No one ever points out tv and movies are scripted yet always must be brought up when wrestling comes up. Its scripted as in its decided who wins but it still takes a toll on the body and a great deal of skill to do correctly. Theres always a lot of interesting spots and a lot of guys do things very differently which leaves a lot of room to argue.

Think about is this way arlos people argue like a mother fucker about video games movies and books yet all of thatis "fake" or scripted as well.


If you say wolverine is your fave xman an argument will break out or people will agree with you but no one goes How can you watch that its not real. Go think about that.

[Kaemon]

I swear, "Professional Wrestling" is by far and away the most homosexual thing ever put on TV that was accepted as mass "entertainment."

Think about it: It's one giant soap opera, with good guys, bad guys, scheming, backstabbing, etc. performed by large, half-naked, muscular men writhing around together on the ground as they grope each other.


Personally, I have never even remotely understood the appeal. Arguing whether someone was "the best" or "great" at it is utterly nonsensical, since the entire thing was scripted anyway.

-Arlos

Wow, talk about homophobia and mass thread derailment, one minute we're talking about how to differentiate the skills/athleticism of a scumbag athlete and the next we're hearing about how Arlos is pee shy at the urinals.

And you call yourself a liberal.

[Drem]

ya wow, dodged the entire question being asked just to go on some nohomo shit hahahahah. i always love it when people go out of their way to condescend something millions of people enjoy. adding zero to the thread/conversation at hand

that being said, i don't like to separate personas from actions. public recognition shouldn't save you from being a murderer or a pedophile. the separation zanchief is advocating is absurd to me, because you wouldn't talk to someone that wasn't famous if you knew they were a pedophile/murderer. i don't care if polanski apologized or not, that isn't good enough. you don't deserve to be a millionaire at that point. they're supposed to be role models. little kids follow (probably not polanski but) all of these athletes like ray lewis and lance armstrong and they're all just pieces of shit. but now lance gets an hourlong tv special where he confesses to the whole world how much of a cheater he was. maybe OJ or ray lewis haven't cheated at their respective sports, but i'm never gonna care about them, no matter how good they are. ray lewis is even in childrens' commercials promoting non-violence. hahahahah! we just promote hypocrisy

hey guys it's cool if you rape a 13 year old girl. you can just move to another country and still win 3 academy awards and make millions. what sort of example does that shit set

[Spazz]

Well said drem.