today's wikileaks cabledump

[brinstar]

I'd still like to see Bradley Manning be executed for the damage he's done

FTFY

[Harrison]

I'm kinda of the opinion that I hope someone puts a hole in the back of assange's head, along with anyone else who has put that many lives in danger for some anarchist's bullshit desire for "transparency."

Fuck wikileaks, anonymous, and lulzsec.

[brinstar]

bah, you're fucking wrong as hell dude. beneath all the lulzy crap, those three organizations are risking a lot to expose all the evil shit that govts around the world do to innocent people for a buck. i will admit that leaking the fully unredacted cabledump was pretty stupid since now all those whistleblowers have names and faces, no excuse for that. but in a time when the general public is drugged and stupefied and legislated into submission, these guys are out fighting corruption on the front fucking lines. if you want to disagree with their methods, you won't get (much of) an argument from me - but if you actually think their goals and motives are anything less than noble and just, you're part of the fucking problem.

[Zanchief]

bah, you're fucking wrong as hell dude. beneath all the lulzy crap, those three organizations are risking a lot to expose all the evil shit that govts around the world do to innocent people for a buck. i will admit that leaking the fully unredacted cabledump was pretty stupid since now all those whistleblowers have names and faces, no excuse for that. but in a time when the general public is drugged and stupefied and legislated into submission, these guys are out fighting corruption on the front fucking lines. if you want to disagree with their methods, you won't get (much of) an argument from me - but if you actually think their goals and motives are anything less than noble and just, you're part of the fucking problem.

This is where you lost me. Truth is a indeed a noble goal, but do you actually think people are bending over to government? The general public has an unjustified hatred for the government and opposes everything it does to the detriment of its people. We live in an age were you can't get away with anything anymore without risk of exposure. This archaic idea that all politicians are out to get you is just part of the new age anarchist mantra that sadly is trumpeted but most of these anonymous/wikileaks/lulz goons. In this regard, Harri most definitely is right. As much as I want to applaud the effort, I can't bring myself to cheer for those guys.

[Harrison]

Yeah, sorry, these faggots are not Shining White Knights out to serve us lowly plebs justice and protection from the big bad evil MAN(tm).

They're just fucking egomaniacs harming careers, jeopardizing lives, getting people killed etc. for their own agendas. This is different than the MAN(tm), how exactly?

I'm ALL for transparency, but....anarchy? Disrupting business, costing people jobs/money, jeopardizing people's lives as I said above? Fucking pathetic.

[Harrison]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/09/09/ ... google_cnn

Such noble justice!

[brinstar]

do you actually think people are bending over to government?

YES. And the government has taught them to enjoy it or shut up.

The general public has an unjustified hatred for the government and opposes everything it does to the detriment of its people.

I'd say the feeling is mutual. Only a government that hates its constituency would do the things our government has done over the past decade.

We live in an age were you can't get away with anything anymore without risk of exposure.

And this is okay?

This archaic idea that all politicians are out to get you is just part of the new age anarchist mantra that sadly is trumpeted by most of these anonymous/wikileaks/lulz goons.

You're close, but not quite there. Politicians are not "out to get" anyone - they are out to preserve the status quo and allow the gulf between the ruling elite and the rest of us to widen and harden. As long as I do nothing contrary to that process they literally could not give a shit about me.

In this regard, Harri most definitely is right.

Nope. The only thing he's right about is the idiotic leaking of WL's source information. That was stupid and terrible and reprehensible, and I have not nor will not make any excuses for that horrible mistake. Anyway, Harrison is a good dude but "don't upset the apple cart" is a pretty weak-ass political stance. When our nation gave King George the finger and penned our Declaration of Independence, one of its most famous lines was "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator by certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness." The very next sentence is this: "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Anarchy is a means, not an end. The actions of these groups are designed to call attention to the fact that our government and its corporate puppetmasters no longer have the People's best interest at heart, in order to reawaken and stoke the public's desire for a government that serves the governed, rather than vice versa.

As much as I want to applaud the effort, I can't bring myself to cheer for those guys.

Suit yourself. I find it interesting to note that all of America's so-called founding fathers were at one time or another considered criminals or traitors by their government. Now we call them patriots.

[Zanchief]

This archaic idea that all politicians are out to get you is just part of the new age anarchist mantra that sadly is trumpeted by most of these anonymous/wikileaks/lulz goons.

You're close, but not quite there. Politicians are not "out to get" anyone - they are out to preserve the status quo and allow the gulf between the ruling elite and the rest of us to widen and harden. As long as I do nothing contrary to that process they literally could not give a shit about me.

This is just insanity. You'd love for your life of vigilance against the man to be validated, but this simply isn't the case. You think politicians are going to bend everyone backwards for the chance to hold the keys for 4 (maybe 8) years? Where's the gain. If they were that unethical they could just open a business, make real money, and have actual power. Politicians are just trying to do the best they can with a fucked up system. And yes it's a good think people can't get away with shit anymore. It quiets some of the anarchists out there. Sometimes...until the next G8 summit and then it's chaos...for the people? I guess?

[Lyion]

You think politicians are going to bend everyone backwards for the chance to hold the keys for 4 (maybe 8) years? Where's the gain. If they were that unethical they could just open a business, make real money, and have actual power. Politicians are just trying to do the best they can with a fucked up system.

While I agree with this, it's a bit surprising to hear you say it.

Does this include Canadian politicians?

[Zanchief]

Absolutely, yes. I may hate Harper, but I don't think he's evil. Some things he does seem evil to me, but it's just because I'm ideological different then him and I know what he's doing is bad for the country.

[Lyion]

Interesting. I think most of our leaders mean well, but my problem is with the endemic corruption.

I used to hate the parliamentary system due to the lack of checks and balances we have. Now at least you can have multiple choices and the ability to change things rapidly, as well as far less corruption. The U.S. three tier system needs even more balance, since our congress can't control their voracious appetite for spending, and our judicial branch wields far too much power.

Both parties keep promising spending controls, more transparency, and simplifying things, yet it never gets done.

I know you like government, but I think they need far less power, money, and capabilities here in the U.S.. That way they can do less damage, regardless of party.

[Zanchief]

It's not that I like the government, it's that I understand the importance of the role they play. So many people seem to just hate any and all involvement with the government. It's like it's a bad word, but their role is crucial in keeping a balance. It is an entity which, whether you believe this is the case or not, has the welfare of its people as its only goal. This is not the case for the corporate sector, and it shouldn't be. Profit should never be an initiative of the government, and the betterment of the country will never be the object of the corporate sector.

We need the government for more then simply building roads, and police its citizens. There needs to be a body that says this is bad for the country, and we will intervene. Maybe that role has been lost in all the rhetoric and partisanship (I know it has here at times), but I still believe in its force for good.

A world according to Ron Paul or Flink would be instantly disastrous. People who think they have it bad because of back door deals and corporate lobbying would go apeshit in a free economy. I don't think humans are ever satisfied. Utopia is not something that can be achieved. People always think the world is coming to an end there are evils around every corner. The government makes a great target for this. I just don't share that pessimism. Maybe when I'll be older I'll hate things more, but now I just hate the haters.

[Lyion]

The problem with government is you can only fix so many things and only spend other peoples money for so long. Government should provide the social safety net, but be limited in scope and means.

Social Security is a great idea.. Until we raid it every year to pay other bills and allow other sorts of claims on top of it screwing with the basic idea.
The bigger issue facing us isn't social security, it's medicare which is currently killing us financially, and likewise is just a corrupt poor system.

Really, most people want some form of government, but with the size of America there are two camps. The first wants things done at the state level in a federalist manner with as little intervention from DC and our centralized government as possible. The other wants DC to essentially usurp control over all major issues such as medical, regulations, energy, and education.

[brinstar]

like other threads i've dredged up recently due to their topics being back in the news, this thread was quite an interesting re-read

well aside from the silly detour of course

anyway,

I'm against the death penalty, but I'd still like to see Bradley Manning be executed for the damage he's done and the people he's caused to be killed. Likewise, I'd throw in jail the moron who linked the State Department systems to DOD and allowed some idiot private the capability to see them.

too bad. none of the charges were eligible for execution, and the most serious one (Aiding the Enemy) got a Not Guilty verdict today. couldn't prove he actually aided the enemy, lol

obviously he'll get the book thrown at him for the other 29 convictions and will spend most of his life in military prison, but as for the death penalty?

stay bloodthirsty, my friends

[Zanchief]

Fun re-read. Does anyone else think Zanchief has so much to say in this thread?

[brinstar]

i zoned out for most of the biblechat but i still do feel like you put too much faith in those serving in govt

[Zanchief]

I don't put faith in those serving, I put faith (for lack of a better word) in the role of government.

[Drem]

Hey guys, how about Russia? Yeah, government is for the people (sometimes)

[Lyion]

I'm against the death penalty, but I'd still like to see Bradley Manning be executed for the damage he's done and the people he's caused to be killed. Likewise, I'd throw in jail the moron who linked the State Department systems to DOD and allowed some idiot private the capability to see them.

too bad. none of the charges were eligible for execution, and the most serious one (Aiding the Enemy) got a Not Guilty verdict today. couldn't prove he actually aided the enemy, lol

obviously he'll get the book thrown at him for the other 29 convictions and will spend most of his life in military prison, but as for the death penalty?

stay bloodthirsty, my friends

Maybe it's wrong, but It boils my blood that he put so many people who have put their lives on the line in gravely dangerous Middle Eastern countries due to his infatuation with wikileaks in harms way. He swore an oath, put on the uniform, and betrayed the trust of many, many people. This was not whistleblowing in any regards. This was a stupid move by a stupid guy who never should have had access to this material

Really, he is going to get far better than he deserves. It's fair, but definitely not just given the damage he's caused, and the people who have died due to him. I'm fine with handing him over to a Middle Eastern country so the little worm can go to the gallows, after sitting and thinking about it for a few months.

On the opposite side of the fence, I actually think Snowden IS a whistleblower, and the complete opposite of this little fuckstick.

This was an interesting read and a good bump

[brinstar]

the people who have died due to him

ahem, recall that the home turf prosecutors failed to get an ATE conviction. espionage act violation? okay. computer data theft? no real argument here. but causing death? not even a frickin military court could find blood on his hands.

now as stated earlier in the thread, Manning shipped off those files to WL with the understanding that sensitive identities would be redacted. WL complied, but then some third party douche accidentally let all those identities go public. you want to prosecute someone for ATE, go after THAT guy


(at least we agree on snowden)