Beth Yeshua

[Narrock]

Wow, I found the place where intellectual Jews congregate on the Shabbat!

http://www.bethyeshua.org/about-us/

We'll have to go check it out after the holidays. :-)

[Ganzo]

These people are not Jews

[Narrock]

Not all of them, no, but there are many Jews who go there.

[Ganzo]

Let me clarify.

What you posted is a link to JforJ (Jews for Jesus) organization - however even their name is a lie. This organization is nothing but a group of Christian missionaries who by design target Jews who come from assimilated families and have no knowledge of Jewish culture and religion but are looking to find their way back into faith.

This organization deliberately designed their services to have some semblance of Jewish religious services (although with many mistakes) and spend considerable time trying to fool unsuspecting people into joining them and abandoning their faith.

I know few people who were members and have been able to leave and join a traditional Judaism and heard many stories of the recruitment campaigns JforJ holds and how they target only specific individuals or families that they know they would be able to trick.

Normally I'm all for freedom of religion but this specific group really disgusts me.

[Drem]

First paragraph says "Jews that love Jesus, the Jewish Messiah". I'm not a religious man, but pretty sure Jews do not believe he was a messiah because of unmet requirements outlined in the Tanakh

[Narrock]

Let me clarify.

What you posted is a link to JforJ (Jews for Jesus) organization - however even their name is a lie. This organization is nothing but a group of Christian missionaries who by design target Jews who come from assimilated families and have no knowledge of Jewish culture and religion but are looking to find their way back into faith.

This organization deliberately designed their services to have some semblance of Jewish religious services (although with many mistakes) and spend considerable time trying to fool unsuspecting people into joining them and abandoning their faith.

I know few people who were members and have been able to leave and join a traditional Judaism and heard many stories of the recruitment campaigns JforJ holds and how they target only specific individuals or families that they know they would be able to trick.

Normally I'm all for freedom of religion but this specific group really disgusts me.

You can be Jewish and still believe Jesus is the Messiah. You belong to a particular group of Judaism who turn a blind eye to it. You're entitled to your opinion and free to believe what you want. But you are NOT the judge, jury, and executioner who slams down the gavel and declares that Jesus is not the Messiah and that you cannot be a JforJ. You don't know what is in the heart, mind, and soul of all Jews, and to proclaim that you do is disingenuous and ignorant.

[brinstar]

You can be Jewish and still believe Jesus is the Messiah. You belong to a particular group of Judaism who turn a blind eye to it. You're entitled to your opinion and free to believe what you want. But you are NOT the judge, jury, and executioner who slams down the gavel and declares that Jesus is not the Messiah and that you cannot be a JforJ. You don't know what is in the heart, mind, and soul of all Jews, and to proclaim that you do is disingenuous and ignorant.

wow

find a more mindia post anywhere on this board

[Ganzo]

Let me clarify.

What you posted is a link to JforJ (Jews for Jesus) organization - however even their name is a lie. This organization is nothing but a group of Christian missionaries who by design target Jews who come from assimilated families and have no knowledge of Jewish culture and religion but are looking to find their way back into faith.

This organization deliberately designed their services to have some semblance of Jewish religious services (although with many mistakes) and spend considerable time trying to fool unsuspecting people into joining them and abandoning their faith.

I know few people who were members and have been able to leave and join a traditional Judaism and heard many stories of the recruitment campaigns JforJ holds and how they target only specific individuals or families that they know they would be able to trick.

Normally I'm all for freedom of religion but this specific group really disgusts me.

You can be Jewish and still believe Jesus is the Messiah. You belong to a particular group of Judaism who turn a blind eye to it. You're entitled to your opinion and free to believe what you want. But you are NOT the judge, jury, and executioner who slams down the gavel and declares that Jesus is not the Messiah and that you cannot be a JforJ. You don't know what is in the heart, mind, and soul of all Jews, and to proclaim that you do is disingenuous and ignorant.

Do you even know what is the difference between Jews and Christians is?
"Jews for Jesus" makes as much sense as "Christians for Allah"

[Narrock]

/facepalm Think what you want. Do YOU know that HUNDREDS of Jews who witnessed Jesus' miracles became Christians, yet maintained their Jewish customs and traditions? Yes, you CAN be Jewish and a Christian simultaneously. Don't bother trying to "explain" how that is not possible, because you are just wrong, plain and simple.

[Ganzo]

/facepalm Think what you want. Do YOU know that HUNDREDS of Jews who witnessed Jesus' miracles became Christians, yet maintained their Jewish customs and traditions? Yes, you CAN be Jewish and a Christian simultaneously. Don't bother trying to "explain" how that is not possible, because you are just wrong, plain and simple.

Do you know that thousands of Christians converted to Islam because Mohammad told everyone that his prophecy came after Jesus and the new way to worship G"d is through following Islam and praying to Allah. Are those converts and basically all Muslims still Christians since Islam believes that Jesus was a messiah and a prophet? If so why are you not yet a Muslim?

[Narrock]

I'm sure many Christians converted due to fear of being killed by Muslims back then, not because they actually believed Mohammad. You got no leg to stand on Ganzo. Keep digging... keep trying though.

[Ganzo]

I'm sure many Christians converted due to fear of being killed by Muslims back then, not because they actually believed Mohammad. You got no leg to stand on Ganzo. Keep digging... keep trying though.

Your response is that all the Christians who've converted to Islam did so out of fear and non from faith? What about people in USA who onvert to Islam daily, or in Europe? Are they doing it out of fear?

[Narrock]

Check your facts. Christianity is experiencing its largest growth in history right now. Christians converting to Islam is minute by contrast. The Muslim propaganda machine can be very alluring to weak-minded people, so I'm sure some conversion is happening. I mean, really, look how many retards voted for barry the 2nd time... they fell for the government/media propaganda machine's bullshit, lies, and other nonsense.

[Narrock]

Hey Ganzo, I think you should find the "contact us" section at any of the hundreds of Beth Yeshua worship centers across America, and email them a letter expressing your disgust with them and how they're not "real Jews" and blah blah blah, and then come back here and paste their response back, if you even get one. lol. Oh, and while you're at it, you might want to throw in that Jesus was just a mythological being concocted by some ancient Jewish scholars. ROFL. Sorry, its hard to not crack up writing this.

[Ganzo]

Are those your responses?

The Muslim propaganda machine can be very alluring to weak-minded people, so I'm sure some conversion is happening.

I can use your own line and replace Muslim with Christian to explain the same point with JforJ. This is like trying to reason with a five year old.

Not my fault you got attracted to one of our messianic cults, we had many of them throughout ages, I'll give you a sample list (in chronological order):

Judas Maccabeus
Simon of Peraea
Athronges
Jesus - The guy you picked as your G"d
Judas of Galilee
Menahem ben Judah
Theudas
Vespasian
John of Gischala
Simon bar Kokhba - this guy actually should have had a better claim since he was proclaimed by Rabbi Akiva, one of our greatest religious leaders
Lukuas
Moses of Crete
Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
Yudghan Al-Ra'i
Sherini
Moses al-Dar'i
David Alroy
Abraham ben Samuel Abulafia
Nissim ben Abraham
Moses Botarel of Cisneros
Asher Lämmlein
Sabbatai Zevi
Jacob Joseph Frank - this guy is the funniest one, he did not claim to be a Messiah but came up with a plan to force Messiah to come by getting people to commit as many sins as possible and would hold these "sin parties" where people tried to break as many commandments as possible at the same time.

I could go on and on with this list and this is the reason why we do not believe in your Messiah, he was not the first nor the last, just unlucky to get his name used by Romans to control their slaves. Any Jew who chooses to follow a cult of your false Messiah breaks the first of the Ten Commandments "You shall have no other gods before me" and becomes Christian no matter how your Christianity is dressed up. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for freedom of religion, Judaism is very hard and demanding and not for everyone so if people want to leave it is their choice. What I dislike is when missionaries try to trick people into abandoning their faith under false pretenses, that is what bothers me in JforJ, that and their stupid name that makes no sense. It's kind of like starting a radical Republican group "Republicans for Obama" and saying that they adhere to all the principals and philosophy and politics of the Republican Party but believe that all of the political decisions of Obama are correct and he is the best President. I'm sure there are people like that but to me they would be as delusional as JforJ members

[brinstar]

Check your facts. Christianity is experiencing its largest growth in history right now.

[citation needed]

[Narrock]

Are those your responses?

The Muslim propaganda machine can be very alluring to weak-minded people, so I'm sure some conversion is happening.

I can use your own line and replace Muslim with Christian to explain the same point with JforJ. This is like trying to reason with a five year old.

Not my fault you got attracted to one of our messianic cults, we had many of them throughout ages, I'll give you a sample list (in chronological order):

Judas Maccabeus
Simon of Peraea
Athronges
Jesus - The guy you picked as your G"d
Judas of Galilee
Menahem ben Judah
Theudas
Vespasian
John of Gischala
Simon bar Kokhba - this guy actually should have had a better claim since he was proclaimed by Rabbi Akiva, one of our greatest religious leaders
Lukuas
Moses of Crete
Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
Yudghan Al-Ra'i
Sherini
Moses al-Dar'i
David Alroy
Abraham ben Samuel Abulafia
Nissim ben Abraham
Moses Botarel of Cisneros
Asher Lämmlein
Sabbatai Zevi
Jacob Joseph Frank - this guy is the funniest one, he did not claim to be a Messiah but came up with a plan to force Messiah to come by getting people to commit as many sins as possible and would hold these "sin parties" where people tried to break as many commandments as possible at the same time.

I could go on and on with this list and this is the reason why we do not believe in your Messiah, he was not the first nor the last, just unlucky to get his name used by Romans to control their slaves. Any Jew who chooses to follow a cult of your false Messiah breaks the first of the Ten Commandments "You shall have no other gods before me" and becomes Christian no matter how your Christianity is dressed up. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for freedom of religion, Judaism is very hard and demanding and not for everyone so if people want to leave it is their choice. What I dislike is when missionaries try to trick people into abandoning their faith under false pretenses, that is what bothers me in JforJ, that and their stupid name that makes no sense. It's kind of like starting a radical Republican group "Republicans for Obama" and saying that they adhere to all the principals and philosophy and politics of the Republican Party but believe that all of the political decisions of Obama are correct and he is the best President. I'm sure there are people like that but to me they would be as delusional as JforJ members

So many directions I can go with this... There is documented eyewitness accounts of Jesus' miracles, which nobody could have done unless they were the Son of God, the Messiah. Now, if you want to now make a new claim that the Old (with of course the exception of the first 5 books) AND New Testament is just a scholar's imagination gone wild... that's YOUR problem, because I'm not buying what you have to sell. At this point, you're just spewing forth what YOUR beliefs are, yet they are unsubstantiated, and you're furthermore trying to convince me that I'm wrong. You are frustrating ME the same as a child frustrates a parent.

Best advice I can offer you is (if you have the ability to be open-minded) is to read a book by Lee Strobel called "The Case for Christ." It will be a real eye-opener for you... much more than that silly claim about Jesus being made up by scholars. You can get it on Amazon and other online retailers, or I bet your local library has a couple copies.

The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus, Large PrintThe Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus, Large Print
Lee Strobel
Retail Price: $18.95
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Buy 24 or more for $13.29 each.
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Excerpt

If you were a journalist, how would you investigate the hottest news story in history? Join award-winning reporter Strobel as he probes the life of Jesus Christ. Interviewing 13 of the country's top Christian scholars, he ferrets out incontestable historical, scientific, and psychiatric evidence to support the claims of Jesus. A unique approach to apologetics!

Part 1 Examining the Record
Can the Biographies of Jesus be Trusted?
Do the Biographies of Jesus Stand up to the Scrutiny?
Were Jesus' Biographies Reliably Preserved for Us?
Is there Credible Evidence for Jesus outside His Biographies?
Does Archaeology Confirm or Contradict Jesus' Biographies?
Is the Jesus of History the same Jesus of Faith?
Part 2 Analyzing Jesus
Was Jesus really convinced that He was the Son of God?
Was Jesus Crazy when He claimed to be the Son of God?
Did Jesus Fulfill the Attributes of God?
Did Jesus - and Jesus Alone - Match the Identity of the Messiah?
Part 3 Researching the Resurrection
Was Jesus' death a sham and his resurrection a hoax?
Was Jesus' body really absent from His tomb?
Was Jesus seen alive after His death on the Cross?
Are there any supporting facts that point to the Resurrection?
Conclusion The Verdict of History
What does the evidence establish and what does it mean today?

But of course you will just dismiss it as fiction...

[Narrock]

Check your facts. Christianity is experiencing its largest growth in history right now.

[citation needed]

ok, here you go:

CBN.com -- In his book The Clash of Civilizations, Samuel Huntington predicts that demographics will decide the clash between Christianity and Islam. And, as he puts it, "in the long run, Muhammad wins out."

In this instance, Huntington is wrong. For the foreseeable future there will be many more Christians than Muslims in the world.

As Penn State professor Philip Jenkins writes in The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity, predictions like Huntingtons betray an ignorance of the explosive growth of Christianity outside of the West.

For instance, in 1900, there were approximately 10 million Christians in Africa. By 2000, there were 360 million. By 2025, conservative estimates see that number rising to 633 million. Those same estimates put the number of Christians in Latin America in 2025 at 640 million and in Asia at 460 million.

According to Jenkins, the percentage of the worlds population that is, at least by name, Christian will be roughly the same in 2050 as it was in 1900. By the middle of this century, there will be three billion Christians in the world -- one and a half times the number of Muslims. In fact, by 2050 there will be nearly as many Pentecostal Christians in the world as there are Muslims today.

But at that point, only one-fifth of the worlds Christians will be non-Hispanic whites. The typical Christian will be a woman living in a Nigerian village or in a Brazilian shantytown.

And these changes will be more than demographic. Jenkins points out that who he calls "Southern Christians" -- those living in Africa, Latin America, and parts of Asia -- are far more conservative, theologically and morally, than their counterparts in the West.

Thus, as Christianity becomes more Southern, it becomes more biblically orthodox. While people like Bishop John Shelby Spong and Templeton Prize winner Arthur Peacock insist that Christianity must abandon its historic beliefs to survive, it is precisely these historic beliefs that attract our Southern brethren.

And thats why in Spong and Peacocks own Anglican Communion African bishops are ordaining missionaries to re-convert the West.

This story of Christianitys explosive growth is one of the great untold stories of our time -- a story that North American Christians need to hear.

Its a story that repudiates those who say that Christians must compromise their beliefs to remain relevant. The opposite is the case. Biblical orthodoxy is winning converts while churches that have lost their biblical moorings languish.

This shift of Christianitys "center of gravity" is also a reminder to Western Christians that we are not the whole show, and we have to start thinking differently about ourselves. We are part of a much larger community: the worldwide Church.

Finally, its a sign that, no matter how bad things seem at home, God is at work throughout the world. Everywhere its proclaimed, the Gospel is changing lives and societies.

In this scary new world of globalization one thing remains true: Its Jesus who people of every realm and tongue bless.

Here's a conversion table from Wikipedia:

Conversion
See also: Conversion to Christianity and List of people who converted to Christianity
Religion Conversions[1] Rate to total growth Rate to size Number of adherents to each new convert
Christianity 2,501,396 9.92% 0.13% 799
Islam 865,558 3.83% 0.07% 1,373
Buddhism 156,609 4.25% 0.04% 900
Sikhism 28,961 7.38% 0.12% 803
Bahá'í 26,333 18.35% 0.37% 270
Zoroastrianism 13,080 22.37% 0.51% 194
Taoism −155
Confucianism −11,434
Jainism −39,588
Shinto −40,527
Judaism −70,447
Hinduism −660,377 [Romanism]

Growth table:

Absolute growth
Religion Births Conversions New adherents per year[1] Growth rate
Christianity 22,708,799 2,501,396 25,210,195 1.56%
Islam 21,951,118 865,558 22,588,676 1.84%
Hinduism 13,194,111 -660,377 12,533,734 1.69%
Buddhism 3,530,918 156,609 3,687,527 1.09%
Sikhism 363,677 28,961 392,638 1.87%
Judaism 194,962 −70,447 124,515 0.91%
Bahá'í 117,158 26,333 143,491 2.28%
Confucianism 55,739 −11,434 44,305 0.73%
Jainism 74,539 −39,588 34,951 0.87%
Shinto 8,534 −40,527 -31,993 −1.09%
Taoism 25,397 −155 25,242 1.00%
Zoroastrianism 45,391 13,080 58,471 2.65%
Global population 78,860,791 78,860,791 1.41%

Religion Adherents (2000)[1] Percent of world Adherents (2025)[1] Percent of world Adherents (2050)[1] Percent of world Growth (number) Growth (percent of adherents) Growth (percent of world)
Christianity 1,999,563,838 33.0% 2,616,670,052 33.4% 3,051,564,342 34.3% 1,052,000,504 52.61% 1.3%
Islam 1,188,242,789 19.6% 1,784,875,653 22.8% 2,229,281,610 25.0% 1,041,038,821 87.61% 5.4%
Hinduism 811,336,265 13.4% 1,049,230,740 13.4% 1,175,297,850 13.2% 363,961,585 44.86% −0.2%
Buddhism 359,981,757 5.9% 418,344,730 5.3% 424,607,060 4.8% 64,625,303 17.95% −1.1%
Sikhism 23,258,412 0.4% 31,377,860 0.4% 37,058,960 0.4% 13,800,548 59.34% 0.0%
Judaism 14,434,039 0.2% 16,053,350 0.2% 16,694,500 0.2% 2,260,461 15.66% 0.0%
Bahá'í 7,106,420 0.1% 12,062,150 0.2% 18,000,900 0.2% 10,894,480 153.30% 0.1%
Confucianism 6,298,597 0.1% 6,817,950 0.1% 6,952,900 0.1% 654,303 10.39% 0.0%
Jainism 4,217,979 0.1% 6,115,650 0.1% 6,732,770 0.1% 2,514,791 59.62% 0.0%
Shinto 2,761,845 0.0% 2,122,950 0.0% 1,655,400 0.0% -1,106,445 −40.06% 0.0%
Taoism 2,654,514 0.0% 3,066,300 0.0% 3,272,200 0.0% 617,686 23.27% 0.0%
Zoroastrianism 2,543,950 0.0% 4,439,930 0.1% 6,964,700 0.1% 4,420,750 173.78% 0.1%
Others 1,632,648,595 27.0% 1,872,525,685 24.0% 1,931,011,808 22.0% 298,363,213 18.27% −5.6%
Total 6,055,049,000 100.0% 7,823,703,000 100.0% 8,909,095,000 100.0% 2,854,046,000 47.13% -

oops, looks like Judaism is having a hell of a time getting converts lol

[Ganzo]

oops, looks like Judaism is having a hell of a time getting converts lol

That is because we do not actively recruit dumbass, do not have missionaries and in fact discourage and turn people away when they ask to convert. You need a hell of a good reason to be allowed to take up a conversion process, not simply saying that your spouse is Jewish so you want to join; and then the conversion process takes years, lots of studying and dedication so not many make it all the way to the end.

There is documented eyewitness accounts of Jesus' miracles, which nobody could have done unless they were the Son of God, the Messiah.

Where are they? The only "eyewitness accounts" come in a form of 4 records of his followers, records which contradict each other, were recorded many years after the supposed events, and recorded by people who had biased perspective. Sorry if this is not enough for me, but if there were 4 guys who showed up today talking about miracles they witnessed 20 years ago no one would take them seriously. On the other hand all the miracles depicted in Exodus were witnessed by the entire nation of 600000+ people. I don't care how good of a speaker you are you will not convince that many people they just saw the waters of the sea part and let you pass unless they all actually experienced it.

Now, if you want to now make a new claim that the Old (with of course the exception of the first 5 books) AND New Testament is just a scholar's imagination gone wild... that's YOUR problem, because I'm not buying what you have to sell.

No to Tanakh but yes to your New Testament, simply because of the reasons above.

I'm not gonna sit and do the homework by buying and reading a book because you don't feel like providing quotes from it but I can give you homework as well. Watch this video of a debate between Christian scholar and a preacher and a Rabbi and see if you can answer any of the Rabbi's questions. You don't have to buy anything and it will only take 3 hours of your time and you may learn a lot about why our faith's are different and why JforJ makes no sense

[Narrock]

oops, looks like Judaism is having a hell of a time getting converts lol

That is because we do not actively recruit dumbass, do not have missionaries and in fact discourage and turn people away when they ask to convert. You need a hell of a good reason tov be allowed to take up a conversion process, not simply saying that your spouse is Jewish so you want to join; and then the conversion process takes years, lots of studying and dedication so not many make it all the way to the end.

There is documented eyewitness accounts of Jesus' miracles, which nobody could have done unless they were the Son of God, the Messiah.

Where are they? The only "eyewitness accounts" come in a form of 4 records of his followers, records which contradict each other, were recorded many years after the supposed events, and recorded by people who had biased perspective. Sorry if this is not enough for me, but if there were 4 guys who showed up today talking about miracles they witnessed 20 years ago no one would take them seriously. On the other hand all the miracles depicted in Exodus were witnessed by the entire nation of 600000+ people. I don't care how good of a speaker you are you will not convince that many people they just saw the waters of the sea part and let you pass unless they all actually experienced it.

Now, if you want to now make a new claim that the Old (with of course the exception of the first 5 books) AND New Testament is just a scholar's imagination gone wild... that's YOUR problem, because I'm not buying what you have to sell.

No to Tanakh but yes to your New Testament, simply because of the reasons above.

I'm not gonna sit and do the homework by buying and reading a book because you don't feel like providing quotes from it but I can give you homework as well. Watch this video of a debate between Christian scholar and a preacher and a Rabbi and see if you can answer any of the Rabbi's questions. You don't have to buy anything and it will only take 3 hours of your time and you may learn a lot about why our faith's are different and why JforJ makes no sense

Yes Jews do proseletyze, but not by knocking on doors, but thru "Introduction to Judaism" classes that can be found at nearly every University and College campus in America. They are targeting students, big time. And I tell you what. Go to the library and read Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Christ" for FREE, and I will watch your video. And I'll tell you something else Ganzo. We have dear friends who are Jewish. They are like family to us, and they are from Israel, are very intelligent, cultured, and educated. We've had lots of discussions about religion, and never once have I heard them utter such rude, offensive, egotistical, arrogant nonsense that I hear from YOU. The only thing Benny has told us is that Jesus could not have been the blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jesus so commonly depicted by Catholic artists. Whatever. That means nothing to me, and I even agree with him.

[Tikker]

.

[Narrock]

Do you know how to analyze and interpret data? Seems like you missed something I posted earlier.

[Ganzo]

Yes Jews do proseletyze, but not by knocking on doors, but thru "Introduction to Judaism" classes that can be found at nearly every University and College campus in America. They are targeting students, big time.

You can say that about any Intro to Religion or World Religions classes however go to any orthodox synagogue (not one of those new age reformed guys who don't know anything about Judaism) and ask about doing a giur, see how far you will get.

And I'll tell you something else Ganzo. We have dear friends who are Jewish. They are like family to us, and they are from Israel, are very intelligent, cultured, and educated. We've had lots of discussions about religion, and never once have I heard them utter such rude, offensive, egotistical, arrogant nonsense that I hear from YOU.

Well I have alot of Christian and (gasp)Muslim friends and non of them ever try to convert me or tell me I need saving so you gonna push your messianic bs on me, expect to get a push back.

[brinstar]

wall of crap

first of all, i'm gonna just go ahead and ignore the CBN.com link because fuck pat robertson and his "ministry"

second, it took me all of about 30 seconds to find on wikipedia that the average annual rate of conversion to christianity from 1910-2010 was 1.32%; meanwhile the average annual rate of conversion to christianity from 2000-2010 is 1.31%, which completely obliterates your claim that "christianity is experiencing its largest growth in history right now"

simple math will tell you it's not even experiencing its largest growth since the automobile was invented, let alone the previous 18+ centuries

[Narrock]

Yes Jews do proseletyze, but not by knocking on doors, but thru "Introduction to Judaism" classes that can be found at nearly every University and College campus in America. They are targeting students, big time.

You can say that about any Intro to Religion or World Religions classes however go to any orthodox synagogue (not one of those new age reformed guys who don't know anything about Judaism) and ask about doing a giur, see how far you will get.

And I'll tell you something else Ganzo. We have dear friends who are Jewish. They are like family to us, and they are from Israel, are very intelligent, cultured, and educated. We've had lots of discussions about religion, and never once have I heard them utter such rude, offensive, egotistical, arrogant nonsense that I hear from YOU.

Well I have alot of Christian and (gasp)Muslim friends and non of them ever try to convert me or tell me I need saving so you gonna push your messianic bs on me, expect to get a push back.

I'm not trying to convert you either. I will leave that up to other Christians.