Bush vs Clinton 2016

[Narrock]

Jeb Bush vs Hillary Clinton 2016? Really? What a media circus this is gonna be, and whoever wins, America loses. I love debating and discussing political issues, but this is... just... omfG. The only level-headed politician I've heard so far is Rand Paul, and I don't even agree with 100% of his politics, but it doesn't even matter neway. And if he (or any other politician) is TRULY dedicated to making REAL changes in America, they will probably be assassinated. We're doomed. Fuck, I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the next Bilderberg (illuminati?) meeting, and hear how these assclowns are going to collude, and shape our future. I've heard talk about population control, and how Ebola was a test to see how the world reacts to it, etc... conspiracy theories... lol or is there some validity to it? I mean, how hard would it be for government jets to fly over urban areas (or any mutherfuckin place they want) and spray a deadly infectious vapor down on our heads? Fuck left vs right, dem vs repub, FEAR the government, period.

[brinstar]

Jeb Bush vs Hillary Clinton 2016? Really? What a media circus this is gonna be, and whoever wins, America loses.

agree 100%. though i will say jeb is the least moronic of the bush clan, i really do think the GOP is the great satan of western culture. not even kidding. hillary is only slightly better, but i'm not going to vote for her either. waste or not, i vote my principles, thank you very much!

The only level-headed politician I've heard so far is Rand Paul, and I don't even agree with 100% of his politics, but it doesn't even matter neway.

rand is a few beers short of a case. i do appreciate his stances against drone killings and for cannabis legalization, and unlike the rest of his caucus he's making some fairly pragmatic noises about the current tide of marriage equality sweeping the nation (nearly two-thirds of US citizens live in states that allow it). that is as far as my appreciation for him goes though - he is still a wackjob re: taxes, education, the EPA, business regulations, etc etc etc. same problem i have with any self-proclaimed "libertarian", really. dead on with half their shit, off the map with the other half.

And if he (or any other politician) is TRULY dedicated to making REAL changes in America, they will probably be assassinated. We're doomed.

agree 100%. nothing will REALLY change as long as we keep letting insanely rich political donors present us with only marginally different flavors of cola every 4 years.

Fuck, I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the next Bilderberg (illuminati?) meeting, and hear how these assclowns are going to collude, and shape our future. I've heard talk about population control, and how Ebola was a test to see how the world reacts to it, etc... conspiracy theories... lol or is there some validity to it? I mean, how hard would it be for government jets to fly over urban areas (or any mutherfuckin place they want) and spray a deadly infectious vapor down on our heads?

easy buddy, take off the tinfoil hat and back away from the deep end. the people who run this place don't need crazy things like ebola or deadly vapours to control the population - not when they've got things like big newsmedia and reality TV doing the job for them. way cheaper to produce.

Fuck left vs right, dem vs repub

i'm sure you don't remember it this way (mainly because it's me saying it and i think you have some sort of weird mental block when you read my posts) but i've basically been saying this all along dude: the real conflict is top vs bottom, and the top's most effective weapon is convincing the bottom that it IS left vs right or dem vs rep. do you think soros or the kochs really give a shit about marriage equality or about education funding? shit no, all they care about is that we keep squabbling over which sock puppet is in office so they can hoover up all the cash and resources they possibly can

[Narrock]

easy buddy, take off the tinfoil hat and back away from the deep end. the people who run this place don't need crazy things like ebola or deadly vapours to control the population - not when they've got things like big newsmedia and reality TV doing the job for them. way cheaper to produce.

Wait. You know I'm not a rabid conspiracy theorist. For example, most CT's collectively agree that Bush knew there was going to be an attack on the WTC, AND that the government blew the buildings up soon after the planes hit it. Uh... no. I've watched the documentaries about it ad nauseum, and they cannot provide concrete evidence to support their claims. And I also don't believe that the moon landing in 1969 was staged. However, I do listen to Clyde Lewis and Jesse Ventura, and I find myself agreeing with a whole hell of a lot of what they say. One of the key goals to the illuminati is to reduce the population by 90%. You're not going to achieve that thru politics, reality tv, or news media. And when you take into account how overpopulated the world is, it's really not that far-fetched to think in terms of governmental population control. Look/listen to all the advertisements trying to entice us to get immunizations, and to submit our DNA to "genealogy" entities in order to "determine if you're genetically pre-disposed for certain diseases." There's something fishy going on.

i'm sure you don't remember it this way (mainly because it's me saying it and i think you have some sort of weird mental block when you read my posts) but i've basically been saying this all along dude: the real conflict is top vs bottom, and the top's most effective weapon is convincing the bottom that it IS left vs right or dem vs rep. do you think soros or the kochs really give a shit about marriage equality or about education funding? shit no, all they care about is that we keep squabbling over which sock puppet is in office so they can hoover up all the cash and resources they possibly can

You were so involved with that Occupy movement, and when I studied it, I A: Didn't agree with a LOT of what they were bitching about. B: I saw how these "peace mongers" trashed pretty much everywhere they went to demonstrate. C: I'll still maintain: The government is fucking with us much more than any corporation ever did. Look dude, I know life is hard. I know gas prices are way too high. I know housing, food, utilities, EVERYTHING is high, and that leaves us with less cash to have fun with. However, corporations do SOOOOOO much to enhance and enrich our lives. I'm employed by a big corporation. You know what? They give me a salary that allowed me to buy a house, go on cool vacations, drive cool vehicles, buy expensive non-gmo and organic foods, buy nice clothes for my daughter, provide my family with a killer retirement plan, etc etc etc. I don't care if there are richer people than me. I don't care if rich people are getting richer because of my labor. This is the land of opportunity. The land of a capitalistic free-enterprise system. I'm fucking HAPPY it's that way, and I want to keep it that way. Rhetorically speaking: If you find you're not getting by, or finding it too hard to get by. Don't rely on the government to punish those who worked extra hard to get where they are. Don't rely on the government for free, or reduced-cost goods and services. Rise YOURSELF up. Find a better paying job. IF we lose these freedoms, we are going to turn into a 3rd world nation. Note: I'm not being a water-carrier for ANY party, but there are some basic important principles that "conservative" politicians fight for that line up with my beliefs. Just sayin.

[Narrock]

And as far as Bush/Clinton. No way in fuck Hillary is even one ounce "better" than Jeb Bush. Hillary did nothing good. Jeb is just a guy who was born with a silver spoon up his ass. I will NOT vote for either, I guarantee it. It doesn't matter who we vote for anyway. I'm convinced the WHOLE system is rigged. The puppet masters decide who will be prez. The fix is in.

[Jay]

While I don't necessarily agree with Mindia's politics, I have to say this is the most reasonable he's ever been with his representation of it.

[Narrock]

I've been listening to http://www.groundzeromedia.org/listen-to-ground-zero for about a year and a half now. Makes me wonder if VOnk listens to him too, since he transmits out of Portland. Oh and i don't agree with Clyde on everything either, in case some of you attempt to investigate this guy and draw parallels to his and my thinking.

[Narrock]

While I don't necessarily agree with Mindia's politics, I have to say this is the most reasonable he's ever been with his representation of it.

I didn't come back to fight or troll. It's been months since I posted. And you know what? lol lol lol I think about you guys in my day to day life outside the NT. Sometimes I wonder how Alex, Leah, Jay, Tossica, Vonk, Arlos, etc etc etc are doing. It's weird. Maybe cuz I'm 48 now, and started EQ and the NT back in 1999 when I was 33. I'm talking the original NT. This one started up 5 years after the old one went away. Anyway, I just wanted to say what's been on my mind lately. heh

[brinstar]

you keep talking about "puppet masters" - who do you think those people are? they are the very captains of industry you are so keen on worshiping. tech giants donate to liberals, oil/chemical giants donate to conservatives, everyone in between donates to both sides to buy as much influence as possible. THOSE are the people calling the shots, thanks to the SCOTUS and its merciless razing of sensible campaign finance laws. i can't understand why you're unable to make the connection between the rigged political/govt system and the people actually doing the rigging.

I'll still maintain: The government is fucking with us much more than any corporation ever did.

the distinction folks like you insist on drawing between government and the biggest multinational corporations is completely illusory in the year of our lord two thousand fourteen. politicians do whatever their donors say they need to do in order to keep the cash flowing, FACT. who do you think the donors are? not folks like you and me, that's for sure.

Look dude, I know life is hard. I know gas prices are way too high. I know housing, food, utilities, EVERYTHING is high, and that leaves us with less cash to have fun with. However, corporations do SOOOOOO much to enhance and enrich our lives. I'm employed by a big corporation. You know what? They give me a salary that allowed me to buy a house, go on cool vacations, drive cool vehicles, buy expensive non-gmo and organic foods, buy nice clothes for my daughter, provide my family with a killer retirement plan, etc etc etc.

mostly thanks to the labor movement, actually, but that's another discussion for another day.

If you find you're not getting by, or finding it too hard to get by. Don't rely on the government to punish those who worked extra hard to get where they are. Don't rely on the government for free, or reduced-cost goods and services. Rise YOURSELF up. Find a better paying job.

what is this, the 1950s? it's not that simple. first of all, our manufacturing base has been completely hollowed out thanks to globalization. big corps here don't want to pay americans $20/hr to do something when they can pay poor people in mexico or china $1/hr to do the same thing faster. big corps don't want to hire people and give them benefits when they can just go through a temp service indefinitely, offer zero benefits, and pay half as much (ask leah about the local kawasaki plant). big corps don't want to pay any tax at all, so they hire an army of lawyers and accountants to either a) make sure they find as many loopholes as they can or b) simply park their profits offshore. General Electric has a negative ETR, which means WE pay THEM to do business here. people like to whine about how america supposedly has the highest corporate tax rate in the world, but that's only nominal. effectively, most big corps don't pay a dime.

second, how exactly does one "rise up" when college tuition is far outpacing inflation and real wages? in the 70s you could put yourself through Yale working 4 hours a day at a minimum wage job. know how many hours a day you'd have to work at minimum wage to pay your way through Yale right now? almost 18. per day. every day. all four years long. who's gonna "rise up" and do that? it's impossible, so people go into five-digit debt thinking it'll get them a profitable career...but see point one above: what careers? all the profitable careers are being sent to other countries with next to no labor laws. so you get kids popping out of college with 40k of debt that they can't shake (except via death) and there's almost nothing for them to go do. the unemployment rate for people under 25 is roughly double the national rate, and quadruple if you're a minority.

how does this story end, do you think? what happens if we continue down this road? the idea that you can just "rise up" and overcome such long odds is pretty much a fairy tale at this point, unless you happen to live in the great plains area or your most fluent language is code. and worse, the problem is accelerating: tuition costs are growing exponentially, minimum wage remains flat, jobs continue to stream offshore, etc. but you notice how everything's fine on wall street? dow's back up over 16,000, so everything must be peachy! bullshit. the only reason unemployment is even under 7% is that we keep adding entry-level minimum wage jobs. there is no state in the union where you can afford a two-bedroom apartment by working 40 hours a week at minimum wage. not one.

so let's see... student debt, lack/disappearance of good quality careers, stagnant wages, worsening levels of national health, growing poverty. what are your solutions to these crises?

IF we lose these freedoms, we are going to turn into a 3rd world nation.

those freedoms are lies; we are already well on our way. right now, the rest of the 1st world nations are switching to systems which guarantee free university education for ANYONE IN THE WORLD (even you and me), free health care, free public transit, and guaranteed living wages, not to mention extremely favorable national family/maternity leave policies. their spending on health care is a fraction of ours, yet our overall national health is a fraction of theirs. some nations even get more than 50% of their energy from renewable sources, something that sounds like a fairy tale.

basically they already make us look like el salvador, so i don't know what you think we're in danger of losing

Note: I'm not being a water-carrier for ANY party

neither am i.

[Narrock]

It's not a fairy tale Alex. You don't need to learn code to make a 6 figure income. You can do it learning a skilled trade too. It's all in your attitude and how hard you're willing to work. Dave Ramsey is a prime example of somebody who will teach ANYBODY how to get out of debt. It requires a plan, sacrifices, and a hell of a lot of discipline. So many people who think they're working hard is actually laughable. If you're willing to eat rice n beans every day for a couple years, don't see the inside of a restaurant (unless you work there or got invited for a free meal), take advantage of free entertainment, stay away from cinemas, etc. you WILL drop that debt in no time. Discipline. You can drop $40k of debt in 2 years using these basic, but painful principles.

Puppet masters... ok, yeah. Big oil pads the pockets of republican politicians. Unions and tech industry pad the pockets of democratic politicians. It all comes back to less discretionary cash in your pocket. We don't have to be living in the 1950's to make changes. Get on careerbuilder.com, monster.com, etc and look around. There are choices. Yeah, you may have to move to another state, and that sucks leaving your family and friends, but it's a way of rising above. We're not going to be able to stop the puppet masters unfortunately. Marches, demonstrations, whatever. It's like pissing in the wind. That's why I say adapt and overcome, to borrow a military phrase, and it basically means "rise up." Be pissed off that you even have to do it, but do it to increase the quality of your life.

[brinstar]

It's not a fairy tale Alex. You don't need to learn code to make a 6 figure income. You can do it learning a skilled trade too. It's all in your attitude and how hard you're willing to work. Dave Ramsey is a prime example of somebody who will teach ANYBODY how to get out of debt. It requires a plan, sacrifices, and a hell of a lot of discipline. So many people who think they're working hard is actually laughable. If you're willing to eat rice n beans every day for a couple years, don't see the inside of a restaurant (unless you work there or got invited for a free meal), take advantage of free entertainment, stay away from cinemas, etc. you WILL drop that debt in no time. Discipline. You can drop $40k of debt in 2 years using these basic, but painful principles.

Puppet masters... ok, yeah. Big oil pads the pockets of republican politicians. Unions and tech industry pad the pockets of democratic politicians. It all comes back to less discretionary cash in your pocket. We don't have to be living in the 1950's to make changes. Get on careerbuilder.com, monster.com, etc and look around. There are choices. Yeah, you may have to move to another state, and that sucks leaving your family and friends, but it's a way of rising above. We're not going to be able to stop the puppet masters unfortunately. Marches, demonstrations, whatever. It's like pissing in the wind. That's why I say adapt and overcome, to borrow a military phrase, and it basically means "rise up." Be pissed off that you even have to do it, but do it to increase the quality of your life.

i know a thing or two about hard work mang! in 2008-2009 i went to 4 semesters + a summer session of full-time undergrad university while working 40 hrs a week to pay the bills. 2010 i "just" worked. 2011-2012 i got a second part-time job to pay off my credit cards. fall of 2013 through spring of 2015 i'm doing grad-level courses to get my teaching certificate (while still working 40 a week). not to mention all that WHILE juggling 3 bands and a softball team. i'm gonna be nearly 40k in debt by the time i'm done, and if i'm lucky i'll get a first-year teaching job making 35k. that ain't easy street, not even in LNK.

the critical fact that you are overlooking is that all that stuff was only even possible because of who i am - i have a supportive family, i have a vehicle, i have good health, a good primary/secondary education, i'm white/male/heteronormative/christian, i have no mental illness, and i'm relatively well-adjusted. swap out any one of those things and suddenly i'm at a disadvantage. what if i'm black? single mother? gotta work after school to help pay bills? poor nutrition? mental illness? physical disability? i'd be doomed. there's no possible way to do what i've done without all the advantages i started with. lots of people start their adult lives standing on 3rd base and just assume they hit a triple, and lots of other people have to walk to the plate with a matchstick and face david price on the mound. we call ourselves the land of opportunity, but not everybody has access to the same opportunities.

anyway my point was that most of the other "1st world nations" have solutions for all this garbage, but anytime anyone around here suggests something similar, it's all "oh no that sounds nice in theory but it would never work in practice! there's not enough money!" and that's laughable, because obviously it DOES work if you have the political will to try it - and there most certainly IS enough money. did you know there's over $25 trillion in pure cash sitting in offshore tax havens? that would wipe out the national debt AND cover a hell of a lot of tuition, if only the people in control were willing to put it back in the system that allowed them to make it in the first place. but once you start to wonder WHO always quashes those ideas and WHY, you find that the slime trail leads invariably to the people with the most to lose, because they would rather make us fight over crumbs than give up their mountains of cookies.

greed is our national religion, the poor its sacrificial lambs.

[Narrock]

I know you're a worker, and educated, and thus have billz out the wazoo. In today's world, I'd wager the point that if you are black, times are easier for you than a white boy. Everybody and everything is so PC now, and companies bend over backwards to ensure equality, equal employment opportunity, equal salary, equal opportunity for advancement, etc. That goes for all cultures. Single mother? Hello Wic, and good day to you AFDC, and howdy EBT card and sec 8 housing. There really is a safety net for po folk, just like Romney said a couple years ago.

I would love to see a levy on items sold here that were manufactured overseas by American companies. And outsourcing is taking a lot of our jobs. How are you gonna stop it? By voting? roflmfao. Do you really think the Hildebeast is gonna solve those issues for us? The whole system is sooooo not legit.

[brinstar]

In today's world, I'd wager the point that if you are black, times are easier for you than a white boy.

are you fucking serious

in a nation where just six weeks ago a black kid was shot to death without warning while holding a toy gun in walmart

are you actually fucking serious

i want to live in the america you think you live in

I would love to see a levy on items sold here that were manufactured overseas by American companies. And outsourcing is taking a lot of our jobs. <snip> The whole system is sooooo not legit.

and oooooonce again, how do you think this system came to be? do you think such corruption and anti-american business practices just OOPS popped into being one day? corporations have been fighting for these things for decades, and they've been winning bit by gradual bit. how do you not see that this is a natural consequence of underregulated free market capitalism?

How are you gonna stop it? By voting? roflmfao. Do you really think the Hildebeast is gonna solve those issues for us?

seriously, mental block. do you just not ever read my posts at all, or do you just stop a third of the way through? voting is like the least that i do, first of all - but more importantly, i have repeatedly maintained that i have zero faith in her and zero plans to vote for her.

[Reynaldo]

Jeb is probably about the most balanced candidate we could hope for at president. His issue is that he bears the "Bush" name.

It would be comical/sad to watch the entire Democratic platform spend billions of dollars on "Bush = bad" campaigns

[Zanchief]

As opposed to the billions on Clinton = Bad campaigns?

[Ganzo]

Brin, stop crying, it is all about how you apply yourself.

I came to USA in 1993, I was 17 with $400 who did not speak English and I already had 2 strikes against me (Jew and immigrant).

I started working 3 days later 2 jobs (cleaner in bakery during day and cleaning offices at night) and I was doing free ESL classes between those jobs.

I learned enough language to get jobs as Taxi driver and took a 6 month class in web design, got a temp job doing HTML, saved some money and invested it in buying tiny condo instead of paying rent(throwing away money). That job ended I found a job in retail in a small family flooring business. Learned everything there, busted my ass and got promoted to manager, in 4 years was running the business and owner sold it to me so he could retire.

Ran my own flooring and construction business for years, and invested all my money in housing, bought 2 rental properties, got married.

Housing market collapsed and my business died, I had to close it, fire all my people and declare bankruptcy while my wife was 8 month pregnant.

Instead of crying I got a job at Home Depot and went to college at night. Busted my ass again, got bachelors in electrical engineering and got a job in engineering (surprise there's ton of them cause only 2% of college students go into it) across the state.

Rented a room in the city where the job was and drove 3 hours each way every Friday and Sunday night so I be with my family on weekend for 2 years, got a better job back home, went into Masters program for Project Management.

Now I'm a Program Manager in Automotive company, bought nice big house by the lake last fall.

The whole time I never complained about how shit is unfair, I worked hard and was grateful for opportunities that this country provides.

[Narrock]

Ganzo, you're a prime example of how to "rise above" and you're a self-starter. Kudos brother. I'm not going to say anything bad about Alex, but I will point out that he leans more toward the victim mentality than the ambitious "I'm gonna get myself outta this mess no matter what" mindset. Maybe with some of us it's our peer groups holding us back... the particular group of friends we tend to congregate with. Negativity breeds negativity. My dad used to say, "Show me who your friends are, and I'll show you who YOU are." I'm sure he got that phrase from some motivational self-help book or something, but it's very true regardless. Note: I'm not holding myself in any superior way to others.

[Jay]

While I'm not advocating for the lazy, I do see where Brin is coming from. People like yourself, Mindia, and Ganzo should be proud for rising above, however, for a country as "great" as the one we live in, prosperity should not be where you end up when you rise above. It should be the norm. A lot of the wealthy elite deny us of that so that they can live further in excess.

[Narrock]

Jay, if let's say "underachievers" were suddenly to become "rich"... a loaf of bread would be $50, a gallon of milk would be $75, a dozen eggs would be $60, etc etc etc. and then nobody would be "rich." Wealth can't be given to you. It MUST be earned. And unless you're willing to work "harder than the next guy" then you'll always be in lower classes or lower-middle class or something like that.

[Arlos]

Except that most of the truly rich don't actually work at all. Their money works, they don't.

[Narrock]

But they did at some point, and invested wisely.

[Arlos]

Not necessarily. Often it was their parents or grandparents that did so.

I mean, you think Paris Hilton earned one dime of the money she was throwing around to land herself her reality shows? You think she had to work hard a day in her life?

[brinstar]

see also: being born on third base and telling everyone you hit a triple

ganzo your life story is impressive but lol if you think being a jewish immigrant in 1993 is anything close to the same level of challenge as being a black child of a single parent in 1993 LA or 2013 detroit. also what kind of education did you have before you came here? do you think a black immigrant from sudan would have had the same opportunities? lmao

these are not victim mentalities, gents. these are facts of race and class in america. it's sad that you can't or won't see it but i can't say i'm surprised

[Jay]

No one is saying an "underachiever" should be rich either. I just think that if you stay on the rails and do what you're supposed to, even if its just nothing above ordinary, you should be able to afford a home, have comprehensive health care, a vehicle and a means to support children. Something about liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You shouldn't have to rise above to do that. You should be able to accomplish that with average talent and average effort.

Right now, in San Francisco, I know way too many talented people in tech fields who can only afford a studio apartment and sandwiches for lunch. Entrepreneurship isn't for everyone. Investment isn't for everyone. Getting out of college and getting a job should not result in financial struggle. Going into a trade after high school and starting a career should not result in financial struggle. IT JUST FUCKING DOES.

It starts with corporations buying up our government. Rich whitey breaks rules and takes advantage of everyone else and suddenly they wanna enforce the rules that keep them rich. They manipulate special interests and speak of everyone following the rules and that's because they made all of the new rules. Fucked from both sides man and yes, you can rise above to prosper despite all that. I have, you have, Ganzo has, but do you guys consider yourselves the norm? If not, that's because the norm is suffering via wallet rape while you aren't because you rose above.

[brinstar]

^^^ fuckin gospel right there

[Gypsiyee]

Your story is beautiful, Ganzo, it truly is.

I don't intend to discredit any of your hard work, but I think it's important to note that 1993 and 2014 are much different times. If the same were to happen today, you likely wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of obtaining legal residency here, much less achieving "the dream." Imagine the added disadvantage of being a few shades darker. (anyone who thinks being white is a disadvantage in the career department is absolutely deluding themselves).