Bush vs Clinton 2016

[Narrock]

Jay, San Francisco real estate is something very few people can afford, same goes for a lot of Marin county cities like Tiburon, Sausalito, Ross, etc, not to mention peninsula properties like Atherton... some of the most expensive real estate in the country. I'd love to have one of those homes near the top of Lombard street, but will I ever be able to afford a $16m house? Not unless I win the lottery.

[Ganzo]

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not advocating current system.
I believe that our country should provide a free healthcare and education for everyone and people should be able to receive a living wages (who can live on $7.50/hr?); but this is not an excuse for victim mentality.
You can ether say that cards are stacked against you and give up and do nothing or you can work hard and achieve something regardless of the difficulties in your way.
A lot of our difficulties are self inflicted: prime example is current welfare/child support system. The system encourages children out of the wedlock as the single parent can sit at home and receive enough child support to never needing to work, just make sure that you have a new kid every so often so that the checks do not run out. The same budget could have been used to provide free childcare to allow parents to work and provide for the family.

Anyway my post was not to refute what you are saying about current system because we are in agreement here, it has failed long time ago, but this is what people want - capitalism and free market; you want change, and i'm not sure it is possible any longer as those in power will not let it go.
My post was simply to say that you can't give up because we have a shitty system, as it is still the least shitty place to be in the world - so make the most of it.

[Gypsiyee]

A lot of our difficulties are self inflicted: prime example is current welfare/child support system. The system encourages children out of the wedlock as the single parent can sit at home and receive enough child support to never needing to work, just make sure that you have a new kid every so often so that the checks do not run out. The same budget could have been used to provide free childcare to allow parents to work and provide for the family.

While I'm not saying that this isn't a plausible scenario that's being used by some people to game the system, I can't say I've ever heard of this. If you could clarify for me -- do you mean couples who are actually together who intentionally avoid getting married to do this? Wouldn't that require a significant amount of litigation and a lot of hoop jumping?

My firsthand experience with welfare is witnessing my sister's experience with it. My sister isn't great with money, I'm not going to say she is. In fact, she's terrible with it, but that doesn't speak to her work ethic. She's got an education from a premium school and has always worked very hard as a case worker taking care of mentally handicapped adults, always working 60+ hours a week until she left a local municipal organization that had some.. let's say upper management corruption issue years back.

She probably should've waited to leave, she didn't leave in the best of ways.. but there were a variety of factors in the workplace that led to essentially a mental breakdown and she walked out. They were later exposed for some pretty serious shit. It wasn't laziness on her part or anything like that, she just reached her breaking point. I'm sure we've all been there.

Anyhow, I digress. This was during the time where the economy was absolute shit. Premium college education, stellar resume in her field, pounding the pavement every day and couldn't get a job. Applying to jobs she's way overqualified for and told "we can't hire you, you're overqualified." She's a single mom, so there are limitations to the hours she can work. It doesn't make sense to get a job paying a low wage that'll barely cover the bills and then have to pay for daycare on top of it when she can get the temporary assistance to cover her while she finds a job in her field and continue to be a mother to her child. She's paid into these programs for years for this very reason, that's what they're there for. And while yes, she ate a lot better while she had food stamps and unemployment because she was getting actual whole foods that food stamps will pay for instead of the cheap junk food she can afford with her own paychecks, she wasn't living in the lap of luxury, I assure you. She was barely making ends meet. The only noticable improvement in my sister's life while she was on welfare was that my niece was actually eating healthier food.

As far as child support, she has fought tooth and nail with the father of my niece since they separated when she was 1. Their divorce was only just finalized, and she is now 8. When she was 4, he was finally ordered to pay $35 a month in child support. Thirty five dollars. A month. Why? Because he doesn't have reportable income because he's a shlub who can't keep a job. And she had a career. And he almost never even makes that $35 a month.

Anyhow, I apologize for the novel.. I guess my point is that while I'm sure there are people out there who abuse the system and find loopholes through unreported income etc, I don't think they're the norm. I just don't think it's lucrative enough to exploit as a career choice on a massive scale. I believe the perception is very misguided, often because someone who is low income has an iphone, or has designer clothes, someone assumes that they can afford expensive things and are abusing the system.. but there's often a lot more to that story.

Edit: and just to add that so that you know that I agree with you about the people who DO abuse the system, and this is something that may shock the shit out of some of you as all of you know how far left I am--I fully support requiring birth control if you are on government assistance. And the liberal part in me supports it being government funded to ensure compliance (and by that I mean gyno visits, covering BC, IUD, implanon, whatever). Just like if you're getting unemployment they require you to provide proof that you're searching for a job, I think if you're on on government assistance you should be required to prove that you're taking responsible measures to avoid increasing the financial burden to your family.

[numatu]

In today's world, I'd wager the point that if you are black, times are easier for you than a white boy.

are you fucking serious

Like most things, "easier" can be relative.

That said, as a group, black African immigrants to the U.S. do much better than native blacks economically. This is true with most immigrant groups by the way.

If race was the predominant factor in failure, why the difference?

It's clearly cultural.

[Narrock]

Numatu, I'm just sayin... everything is retardedly PC nowadays. Companies are scared shitless of getting sued for being prejudiced or racist, so therefore, they absolutely bend over backwards for African Americans, and other ethnic groups. Heck, most government employers HAVE to hire a certain percentage of minorities by mandate. This is beyond fucked up. There's a lot of highly qualified non-minorities being "passed over" simply because their skin isn't of a dark pigmentation. This kind of nonsense also angers and frustrates non-minorities and deeply widens the "racial divide" that we have in America. Whenever you see "EEOC" on a job application, be prepared for the "We thank you for seeking employment with our organization, but we have chosen a candidate we feel is more suitable for the position" bullshit letters. It is absolutely infuriating.

Democrats perpetuate and champion this CRAP, and I see America's values being flushed down the toilet DAILY by "liberal" politicians. Now throw into the pot of shit the democrats created, things like outrageous tax hikes... as if we don't pay enough motherfucking taxes as it is, and then turn around and put those hard-earned tax dollars into shameful programs like: Buildings to house illegals crossing the border, Section 8 housing, EBT cards, cell phones, free this, free that, etc etc etc. Not to mention stomping all over the constitution that made America great. That's why, as sure as I'm sitting here typing this, I will NEVER, EVER, EVER vote for a Goddamned democrat EVER in my life. They have brought America to her knees. Clinton, probably the most unprofessional and disgusting presidents we've ever had; Carter, with his IQ of probably less than 60; Obama, a racial divider and a minority with a dangerous agenda, and has the most corrupt administration in the history of mankind, let alone America. Thank GOD Eric Holder resigned. How about these new LBGT laws? Certain municipalities are mandating that you can use whichever gender restroom you identify with. DAFUQ????? And Alex, I respectfully say... if you don't see what's happening, YOU are blind my intelligent and articulate friend.

Then we have Richie Rich on the right planning on running. A guy who will undoubtedly use his executive privilege to pad his own pockets even deeper by catering to BIG BUSINESS, big oil, etc and protecting his family's interests. It's madness. I will take that over a liberal ANY DAY, but it's still not much of a palatable choice. This whole thing is going to be a true circus, and we're all gonna lose (we'll just lose even worse if another liberal gets elected).

[brinstar]

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not advocating current system.
I believe that our country should provide a free healthcare and education for everyone and people should be able to receive a living wages (who can live on $7.50/hr?); but this is not an excuse for victim mentality.
You can ether say that cards are stacked against you and give up and do nothing or you can work hard and achieve something regardless of the difficulties in your way.
A lot of our difficulties are self inflicted: prime example is current welfare/child support system. The system encourages children out of the wedlock as the single parent can sit at home and receive enough child support to never needing to work, just make sure that you have a new kid every so often so that the checks do not run out. The same budget could have been used to provide free childcare to allow parents to work and provide for the family.

Anyway my post was not to refute what you are saying about current system because we are in agreement here, it has failed long time ago, but this is what people want - capitalism and free market; you want change, and i'm not sure it is possible any longer as those in power will not let it go.
My post was simply to say that you can't give up because we have a shitty system, as it is still the least shitty place to be in the world - so make the most of it.

i'd high-five you so hard right now

[brinstar]

Numatu, I'm just sayin... everything is retardedly PC nowadays. Companies are scared shitless of getting sued for being prejudiced or racist, so therefore, they absolutely bend over backwards for African Americans, and other ethnic groups. Heck, most government employers HAVE to hire a certain percentage of minorities by mandate. This is beyond fucked up. There's a lot of highly qualified non-minorities being "passed over" simply because their skin isn't of a dark pigmentation. This kind of nonsense also angers and frustrates non-minorities and deeply widens the "racial divide" that we have in America. Whenever you see "EEOC" on a job application, be prepared for the "We thank you for seeking employment with our organization, but we have chosen a candidate we feel is more suitable for the position" bullshit letters. It is absolutely infuriating.

Democrats perpetuate and champion this CRAP, and I see America's values being flushed down the toilet DAILY by "liberal" politicians. Now throw into the pot of shit the democrats created, things like outrageous tax hikes... as if we don't pay enough motherfucking taxes as it is, and then turn around and put those hard-earned tax dollars into shameful programs like: Buildings to house illegals crossing the border, Section 8 housing, EBT cards, cell phones, free this, free that, etc etc etc. Not to mention stomping all over the constitution that made America great. That's why, as sure as I'm sitting here typing this, I will NEVER, EVER, EVER vote for a Goddamned democrat EVER in my life. They have brought America to her knees. Clinton, probably the most unprofessional and disgusting presidents we've ever had; Carter, with his IQ of probably less than 60; Obama, a racial divider and a minority with a dangerous agenda, and has the most corrupt administration in the history of mankind, let alone America. Thank GOD Eric Holder resigned. How about these new LBGT laws? Certain municipalities are mandating that you can use whichever gender restroom you identify with. DAFUQ????? And Alex, I respectfully say... if you don't see what's happening, YOU are blind my intelligent and articulate friend.

Then we have Richie Rich on the right planning on running. A guy who will undoubtedly use his executive privilege to pad his own pockets even deeper by catering to BIG BUSINESS, big oil, etc and protecting his family's interests. It's madness. I will take that over a liberal ANY DAY, but it's still not much of a palatable choice. This whole thing is going to be a true circus, and we're all gonna lose (we'll just lose even worse if another liberal gets elected).

i'm curious why you keep asking about things if you never have any interest in thinking critically about them - it's like instead of a real discussion, you're just waiting for your turn to post

no wait, you sound exactly like one of those shithead conservative radio talk show hosts with all their misinformation, cherry-picked quotes, and fearmongering. you know the kind, they use shouted repetition to drown out the few guests smart enough to realize they're full of shit, they pander to the lowest common denominator, they use carefully-crafted race/class dogwhistles to prey on the fears of our dumbest, and they just generally do a bang-up fucking job of poisoning the well of public fucking discourse. it's uncanny really, i feel like i'm reading a direct transcript

anyway, a few observations:

1. wow what a load of manufactured non-crises. first of all, half of that stuff isn't even true (and i've got a pretty good idea on where you heard it). second, i am pretty sure it's YOU walking on the constitution if you think your idiotic personal beliefs should dictate what other CITIES can or can't do with their TOILETS. i thought you were all about freedom? if you'd actually read your constitution, you'd know that states and on down through lesser governmental bodies have free reign to make laws as they see fit, as long as they're not specifically barred by the constitution itself. that's how prostitution is legal in NV* and why some towns will let you walk around outside the bar with your beer and others won't and why all the non-shitty states don't give a fuck about whether two dudes want to get married. third, related to the first, read your own post for a moment and consider how many of the stances you have on those things you whined about are based on your personal faith. well guess what, fuck your faith. read your constitution again - the first amendment guarantees that one american's faith can't be the basis for laws that directly affect another american. not that i think you are particularly sincere about your faith anyway, but that's irrelevant

2. i'm not sure what you're talking about re: liberals in charge wrecking the place. there's mountains of evidence to the contrary, but you could surely start with the fact that red states almost invariably suck far more money out of the federal government than they put in, whereas it's pretty much always the blue states footing the bill. good luck spinning that one. or you could also look at kansas right now. gov brownback came in and hammered through some insane shit containing - oh you'll never guess - massive tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations, and equally massive cuts to just about every branch of state government. "it will give the kansas economy a shot in the arm" he said. to the contrary. several years later and the state is in a freefall, shedding jobs and bleeding debt. the boeing plant that basically put wichita on the map shut down and moved out of state, and the cuts to the education system were so deep that PARENTS sued the governor over his budget. the conservative free market supply side deregulation gospel of jayzuz has already been tried dude, and it's only created misery and suffering. that's because it's a complete fraud designed for one thing and one thing only: wealth extraction.

3. speaking of ultra-red states, have you heard of how utah is solving homelessness? by giving away homes to people who don't have them. they figured that hey, since the average homeless person costs us about $16,000 per year in ER trips and jail stints, why wouldn't we just give them an apartment AND a caseworker for only $11,000 a year. now, you tell me: is that nanny-state? is that government overreach? is that unnecessary welfare? all i see is two birds with one stone - homelessness eradicated, money saved. government of/by/for the people CAN solve more problems than it creates, as long as the right people are at the wheel. too bad half this fucking dumpster fire keeps electing assholes determined to prove the opposite

4. oh so now you admit that elected officials cater to big business/oil/whatever rather than serve the people that elected them? you do realize corporations' corrupting influence on policymaking was a huge part of almost all my previous posts in this thread, not to mention one of the main thrusts of Occupy? i'm beginning to think you never know what the fuck you're talking about, you just take whatever stance lets you disagree with me

[Narrock]

Alex, I came back and posted things in a respectful manner. Now you've once again showed what a misinformed and offensive citizen you are. Every time I think there's a chance that you'll show a side of decency, you blow it big time with idiotic statements and rudeness.

You will not be able to refute ANYTHING I've said because what I said is actuality, not Republican talking points or fear mongering. Fucking Google Obama approving 4 billion dollars to go to the border to build sanctuaries for the snakes slithering across the border.

You call the gender bathroom debacle a "freedom?". You have a warped sense of what freedom is. How about my wife and daughter's freedom and civil right to use a public restroom without some fucking FREAK walking in? I am truly boggled as to your thinking which is absolutely bizarre and is a prime example of why America is in a state of decay.

Twisting, turning, and spinning the constitution is all the "left" does. America has lost it's identity and pride because of liberal lawyers, liberal politicians, and the under informed and misinformed and brainwashed morons who support them.

[Arlos]

Uh, Mindia, I'm not going to address the rest of your diatribe at the moment, other than to say you're very very wrong in much of it, but I did have to speak up about Jimmy Carter.

I won't dispute that he had definite negatives to his presidency, especially with related to the economy, and then the Iran hostage crisis. He did kind of inherit a shit sandwich in terms of the OPEC oil embargo, but yes, he could have done better. However, he was the driving force that got a historic peace treaty between Israel and Egypt. First time any Arab nation signed a peace treaty with Israel, and you have him to thank for that.

As a man and a private citizen, however, he is an incredibly admirable individual. I'd call him one of our greatest ever ex-Presidents.

Did you know he was a nuclear engineer for the Navy? He was a full Lieutenant, and was part of the initial group of staff trained on nuclear power. He even was in command of a team that dealt with cleaning up and stabilizing a reactor after a major incident. Not exactly the kind of thing someone with a 60 IQ would be put in charge of, don't you think?

Did you know that the Carter Center he founded has done massive work in 3rd world countries to help control disease, promote democracy, and monitor elections? That the Center's work has led to a reduction in cases of Guinea Worm infections from 3.5million a year in 1986 to 148 cases last year?

Did you know that he dedicates his own time and labor to building housing for the poor as part of Habitat for Humanity? Not just sit on their board or something, but he actually goes out there and swings a hammer, etc.

Did you know that he's a Deacon at his Baptist church, and founded a new organization of Baptist churches called the New Baptist Covenant that organizes churches that combine to include more than 20 million members?

Did you know that he, himself, is pro-life, and that he has publicly encouraged the Democratic party to become more pro-life?


So yeah, you can argue his record as President or sure, and I won't even disagree with some assertions. But even while I disagree with him on a few things, I don't think you could even begin to insult him as a man.

-Arlos

[10sun]

I'm not sure what civil rights have to do with using public restrooms.
Is it in the bill of rights somewhere?

[brinstar]

Alex, I came back and posted things in a respectful manner. Now you've once again showed what a misinformed and offensive citizen you are. Every time I think there's a chance that you'll show a side of decency, you blow it big time with idiotic statements and rudeness.

stop crying. make a substantive case, or don't bother posting.

You will not be able to refute ANYTHING I've said because what I said is actuality, not Republican talking points or fear mongering.

just fuckin lol. i've refuted EVERYTHING you've said with facts and evidence, but you can't address those so you attack me instead.

Fucking Google Obama approving 4 billion dollars to go to the border to build sanctuaries for the snakes slithering across the border.

snakes? those are children, you fucking monster - children who know nothing but violence, rape, and death. have you forgotten what's inscribed on ellis island?

You call the gender bathroom debacle a "freedom?". You have a warped sense of what freedom is. How about my wife and daughter's freedom and civil right to use a public restroom without some fucking FREAK walking in?

as i fucking said, show me where the constitution guarantees that "civil right". you have no idea how the constitution even works, do you? BOO HOO MY CIVIL TOILET RIGHTS

I am truly boggled as to your thinking which is absolutely bizarre and is a prime example of why America is in a state of decay.

the fact that my thinking boggles you is absolutely bizarre and is a prime example of why America is in a state of decay.

Twisting, turning, and spinning the constitution is all the "left" does.

says the guy who thinks the constitution dictates what municipalities can or can't do with their toilets. really? i'm the one twisting the constitution? try reading it sometime, i guarantee half the shit you think is in there isn't.

America has lost it's identity and pride because of liberal lawyers, liberal politicians, and the under informed and misinformed and brainwashed morons who support them.

yawn, wtb a real debate

[Zanchief]

Well that didn't take long.

[brinstar]

the supposed "friendlier, more level-headed mindia" never lasts beyond a page

happens every 9 months or so since infinity

[Jay]

Mindia is seriously the greatest troll that has ever lived.

[Drem]

ya wow. i thought maybe in a non-political thread he would be better. asked him some questions. he responded with explanation of something totally unrelated that i'm obviously aware of because i already mentioned it earlier

[Kramer]

yusssss


"Mindia is seriously the greatest troll that has ever lived."

[Reynaldo]

I figured he'd be back by now chest bumping that the republicans made strides in the congress seats.

[brinstar]

takes him a bit to internalize everything talk radio tells him to think and say before he can come repeat it all here

[Arlos]

Thought this was amusing as a post-election note from one of our northern neighbors:

[Ganzo]

Thought this was amusing as a post-election note from one of our northern neighbors:

What a bunch of bullshit.

Economy recovered somewhat yet salaries did not rise and are still at 2008 range, so effectively everyone got poorer, the rich/poor balance shifted further.

Soldiers came home prematurely giving ISIS free reign to commit some of the worst atrocities that no one cares about.

We destroyed Libya - completely, taking a country to ungovernable warlord Somalia level.

We destroyed relationship with Israel - our only ally in the Middle East

We destroyed relationship with Russia, giving Putin all the means to whip up nationalistic frenzy and become a full fledged dictator.

We made healthcare more expensive for the middle class, further reducing their income levels

We turned News into lies and propaganda machine to the level that USSR never dreamed of.

I can go on and on and on about all the wonderful innovations of our great president

[Harrison]

Ganzo, the child out of wedlock system abuse doesn't work. (If it does I'm not doing it right and need to get on that gravy train.)

[brinstar]

What a bunch of bullshit.

Economy recovered somewhat yet salaries did not rise and are still at 2008 range, so effectively everyone got poorer, the rich/poor balance shifted further.

Soldiers came home prematurely giving ISIS free reign to commit some of the worst atrocities that no one cares about.

We destroyed Libya - completely, taking a country to ungovernable warlord Somalia level.

We destroyed relationship with Israel - our only ally in the Middle East

We destroyed relationship with Russia, giving Putin all the means to whip up nationalistic frenzy and become a full fledged dictator.

We made healthcare more expensive for the middle class, further reducing their income levels

We turned News into lies and propaganda machine to the level that USSR never dreamed of.

I can go on and on and on about all the wonderful innovations of our great president

-you are right about the economy. it's only really a "recovery" if you were already rich, everyone else is doing worse

-soldiers came home when it was agreed they'd come home. not many people know/care about this but we HAD to leave iraq because at the end of that year the new iraqi govt was going to end their policy of criminal immunity for our troops, i.e. they could be detained and prosecuted for breaking local laws. if you have a problem with the timing, take it up with GWB - he's the one who hammered out that deal. obama just stuck to the terms.

-you are right about libya

-lol if you think the USA and israel aren't still in bed together (or wouldn't be if shit REALLY hit the fan)

-mmm i think putin destroyed our relationship with russia (partially by granting asylum to Snowden)

-if you are referring to actual "healthcare", it's the medical industry in tandem with americans' unhealthy lifestyles (particularly in the South) who keep making it more expensive, not the govt. there's no accountability whatsoever, it's all profit-driven and stinks of supply-side nonsense. if you are referring to "health insurance", sure the affordable care act may have caused some bumps but study after study show that it's actually reducing the rate of cost increase (you know, kinda like how our budget deficit keeps rapidly shrinking). the states who rejected medicaid expansion and refused to start their own exchanges are also adding to the rising costs of healthcare. it's still a shitty system, to be clear, but new babysitters can't be expected to fix kids that were raised like assholes

-"we turned news into lies and propaganda machine" hahahahaha it's been going that way for almost 40 years are you joking

-"i can go on and on"

let me try:

-unprecedented persecution of whistleblowers and insane lack of transparency in what was promised to be an extremely transparent and just administration

-absolutely zero actions taken to rein in the excessive gambling done on wall street that already led to one financial crash and bailout (the biggest banks before the crash are even bigger now)

-unauthorized military drone strikes against civilians, including american citizens

-guantanamo still open

-NSA

-zero attempts at tax reform


and keep in mind i have specifically chosen things that cannot be blamed on what is surely the worst congress in US history

[Reynaldo]

I'm a person that pretty much only pays attention to things that affect my family's bottom line and I will say that the economy doing well thing does irk me.

I make about 25 grand more as a family now than I did in 2008, yet my take home pay has stayed virtually the same.

I signed up for the high deductible "consumer driven" health plan at work for this coming year though so that will be $550 per month in premium dollars back in my pocket (of which I'll put at least 200 into the hsa account), so that's at least a car payment if my corolla dies......

[Evermore]

they both suck

[brinstar]

they both suck