Being Socially Conscious vs Being a Pussy

[Jay]

Just curious where you all draw the line. The landscape has changed pretty drastically where once upon a time you could make an off color joke and it was assumed that you were being sarcastic but your intent was separate from your joke. Nowadays you will called on it and are part of the problem. Do you all think we're oversensitive pussies today or are we breaking ground on being a more socially conscious society?

Personally, I can laugh at anything and it definitely depends on the context and company. If I make a joke and someone says they didn't like it, I try to be cool about it and I don't think I have a right to tell them how they should feel, but I will make that same joke with other friends who will laugh and we'll carry on like we usually do. I do get annoyed when people fish for things to be offended about. They are a total buzzkill.

[brinstar]

whoops i meant to respond to this sooner; anyway great post

although there are occasionally examples where i might be inclined to agree a line has been crossed, i really do think this sea change is a direct result of people becoming more socially conscious. if you think about it, we are in many ways vastly more connected now than ever before - which has its downsides of course, but it's true nonetheless.

with that greater connection, as well as deeper understandings of sociology and psychology, comes greater awareness of how the way we conduct ourselves and the way we treat others can have serious impacts on their lives (just like how others conduct themselves and treat us can have serious impacts on OUR lives).

and that kind of awareness is hard to unacquire. just knowing about the devastating effect that intergenerational poverty has on an innocent child's capacity to learn, level of nutrition, and quality of life makes it really hard to enjoy jokes that come at the expense of his or her race, economic situation, or whatever other demographic. likewise, just a peep at the constant barrage of sexualized messages a woman receives at all hours of the day - whether from advertising, entertainment, or directly from other humans - sort of takes away any motivation i might have to make wisecracks based on harmful gender/sexual stereotypes.

all that being said, comedy can be a great tool! it can be a mirror to help show people their own prejudices, it can show solidarity with others in similar situations as yours, and it can open up conversations about the really hard shit in our world that we might not otherwise be able to talk about (like the way CK or ansari talk about sex/relationships, or the way chappelle/pryor talked about race, or the way carlin addressed plutarchy in his later years). therefore i think it's a mistake to declare a topic universally off limits, as long as your approach is thoughtful and serves a just purpose and - this is key - doesn't pander to prejudices.

no one wants to live in a world where we must constantly monitor our speech and our thoughts for even the slightest bit that might possibly offend someone. the goal, i think, is to get to the point where we don't have to. some of us find that a lot easier than others - and i'd say the friction inherent in your thread title typically bubbles up from people who don't WANT to stop being racist/sexist/classist/faithist/shitty (ex: southern whites angry that their racist traitor flag is no longer acceptable)

[Menelvir]

Maybe it's not conversation, but in social settings that don't involve people I've known for 30+ years, it seems I frequently do little talking at all -- I mostly just listen -- and many people really, really, want to talk. There's one guy here at work that's a real raconteur -- he's got stories of all stripes of which I've heard many.

My sense of humor is very often subtle, but if I think of something that strikes me as humorous, I'll usually throw it out there without fear of giving offense. I view very little as sacrosanct, but I'm not unnecessarily cruel or demeaning.

[Jay]

I got into a conversation about transphobia and how its rude that I don't treat a gender reassignment like it's a normal thing.

It's not.

If I saw you everyday and you got a different haircut I would be like "Whoa man, new do?" but if someone gets gender reassignment I'm supposed to go about my day like nothing happened or I'm a transphobe. I don't hate you or judge you or even truly understand you but I should be allowed to be like whoa, you're different today...and from now on...

[Drem]

Point is it isn't about you. We're in an age where anything goes. Gotta roll with the punches. Just be supportive and move on. Even if you don't understand it. You know, if you don't have something nice to say, etc...

It's all about karma, baby

Could also get into how bad I think it is to waste time wondering about or condemning things you'll never be able to change, but I won't. All those people want is support

Edit: As far as the original topic, I think it's most noticeable on the internet. Day to day conversation with clients and years in the service industry have taught me that if anything, people have less of a filter now than ever. Especially once they get comfortable. God, some of the things the 70yo ladies say crack me up. Louis CK-style realism and swearing. Awesome

This also means people that think things like "all those sand nigger refugees are going to assimilate the country and we don't even have a president that can xxxxxxx or xxxxxxxx" are becoming more vocal in public as well. I shit you not a 70yo white lady was going on about that one morning. I had to ask her to stop talking about politics and religion. The other clients and technicians were so annoyed, but this lady thought she was spewing the gospel. So this insane freedom we're seeing these days definitely has its cons

But on the internet, you'll see someone on reddit post a story about their horrible cab driver ignoring everything he says because the driver's on the phone yelling at someone in Farsi, but because they said "he was an arab dude", the top comment is like "Why is his race relevant in any way?" with 75 more comments saying OP's a racist. That sort of shit bothers me

[10sun]

This makes me wonder about Randall. I don't even remember what his character was named.

[brinstar]

I got into a conversation about transphobia and how its rude that I don't treat a gender reassignment like it's a normal thing.

It's not.

If I saw you everyday and you got a different haircut I would be like "Whoa man, new do?" but if someone gets gender reassignment I'm supposed to go about my day like nothing happened or I'm a transphobe. I don't hate you or judge you or even truly understand you but I should be allowed to be like whoa, you're different today...and from now on...

okay on the surface you might have a point - coming out and officially switching presented genders is a pretty momentous thing and is way bigger than a haircut or even a significant loss of weight

but if you know someone is transitioning then there's not really a surprise involved beyond the initial announcement. it's not one day you're a burly rough-and-tumble lumberjack and the next day you are a delicate feminine flower; the reality of transitioning doesn't work like that. the surprise moment happens long before than the actual reassignment surgery

real transphobia is when people are like "well i'm still gonna call it Bruce" or the outrageous fact that "trans panic" is a viable legal defense for when a guy discovers a girl used to be a guy and beats/kills her or when you make mundane trans jokes at their expense or when you assume that there's some sort of coercive hidden agenda

[Zanchief]

I got into a conversation about transphobia and how its rude that I don't treat a gender reassignment like it's a normal thing.

It's not.

If I saw you everyday and you got a different haircut I would be like "Whoa man, new do?" but if someone gets gender reassignment I'm supposed to go about my day like nothing happened or I'm a transphobe. I don't hate you or judge you or even truly understand you but I should be allowed to be like whoa, you're different today...and from now on...

People who suffer from Gender Dysphoria are 25 times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of us. That's pretty staggering. If "not being a pussy" means telling it like it is, and making people more anxious and more uncomfortable because you don't think it's a "normal thing", that's a pretty shitty attitude to have.

[brinstar]

^^^ nailed it

for that matter, when people say they like donald trump because he "isn't afraid to tell it like it is" what they're really saying is "hey his obvious bigotry comforts and reinforces my own!"

[Lyion]

I got into a conversation about transphobia and how its rude that I don't treat a gender reassignment like it's a normal thing.

It's not.

If I saw you everyday and you got a different haircut I would be like "Whoa man, new do?" but if someone gets gender reassignment I'm supposed to go about my day like nothing happened or I'm a transphobe. I don't hate you or judge you or even truly understand you but I should be allowed to be like whoa, you're different today...and from now on...

People who suffer from Gender Dysphoria are 25 times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of us. That's pretty staggering. If "not being a pussy" means telling it like it is, and making people more anxious and more uncomfortable because you don't think it's a "normal thing", that's a pretty shitty attitude to have.

That's not at all what he said or implied. The problem is the implied 'victimhood' in discussing something or being surprised about a guy one has known suddenly showing up in miniskirts is not transphobic or whatever, it's general surprise. There's a natural dynamic in relation to social order, gender, and communication.

If you dress a dog up as a duck, it remains a dog. It's not the norm. It will surprise people. This is not duck racism. The same is true regarding people. Red herrings related to statistics that are probably not correlated does not change the simple truth of the matter.

[Zanchief]

It's not an implied victomhood, it's an empirical fact. 25 times, that's a fact. We can argue why, but I think any rational person knows it's because being different is difficult, and exacerbating this because we want to create our own normative distinctions seems a bit selfish. I have not used terms like phobia or racism. I'm just saying if people are clearing having a really hard time, like 25 times harder a time, then the rest of us, we can do our best to swallow our own urges to point and say, this is strange to me, and just be supportive.

[Drem]

a guy one has known suddenly showing up in miniskirts is not transphobic or whatever, it's general surprise.

It doesn't happen that way though, everyone knows way before it's going to happen. We have a client who is transitioning into a woman and it's taken over a year. They have to start taking hormones to change their bodies long before any actual surgery takes place. And no one's saying you can't think it's weird, you just shouldn't talk about it. There's really no point.

[Jay]

I guess I used a bad example.

I don't know anyone in the office or anything that is transgender, but in the case of Bruce to Caitlyn Jenner for instance, to me it just happened one day and my reaction was whoa, ok and someone elses reaction was defensive to which my response was. I've got nothing against it. Why do you get defensive for this person you've never met because it caught me by surprise? I'm not gonna sit here and be like NO WAY ITS BRUCE AND THAT'S A HE, but yeah genuinely I'm surprised and had a reaction. A 2 second reaction that ended with me not taking any issue with what she did but give me a break if I miss a pronoun every once in a while.

[Jay]

I got into a conversation about transphobia and how its rude that I don't treat a gender reassignment like it's a normal thing.

It's not.

If I saw you everyday and you got a different haircut I would be like "Whoa man, new do?" but if someone gets gender reassignment I'm supposed to go about my day like nothing happened or I'm a transphobe. I don't hate you or judge you or even truly understand you but I should be allowed to be like whoa, you're different today...and from now on...

People who suffer from Gender Dysphoria are 25 times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of us. That's pretty staggering. If "not being a pussy" means telling it like it is, and making people more anxious and more uncomfortable because you don't think it's a "normal thing", that's a pretty shitty attitude to have.

^This is exactly my point. If someone whom I've known as a man showed up as a woman, that would surprise me if I didn't know they were going through it. Surprise is natural when something or someone you know is no longer what you know it or them to be yet you're kinda jumping down my throat for a natural reaction of which isn't me freaking out or anything. It might be along the lines of "oh, you're different today. I didn't realize" or I might not say anything at all but be entirely surprised within and not at all opposed.

normal
[nawr-muh l]
Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
adjective
1.
conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

Not normal is exactly what it is. Not common. I have a pacemaker. That's not normal. People have commented on it. I don't think they are awful people. Normal or not in no way suggests lesser.

[Lyion]

It's not an implied victomhood, it's an empirical fact. 25 times, that's a fact. We can argue why, but I think any rational person knows it's because being different is difficult, and exacerbating this because we want to create our own normative distinctions seems a bit selfish. I have not used terms like phobia or racism. I'm just saying if people are clearing having a really hard time, like 25 times harder a time, then the rest of us, we can do our best to swallow our own urges to point and say, this is strange to me, and just be supportive.

Your insinuation is the fact people are surprised and not 'ignoring' this is the catalyst for their increased likelihood to commit suicide. Not buying it. Also, people being surprised and seeing it as strange is because it is strange.

I'm not saying it justifies cruel or inhumane behavior, but this description pretty much applies correctly

strange
1. unusual or surprising in a way that is unsettling or hard to understand.

I do not understand transgender or a desire to change your body. Personally, being a libertarian, it bothers me not at all, and I'm all for freedom so one can have SRS or be a dude in a pink tutu with piercings. That does not mean it is not strange or 'norm', and I'm equally for people being allowed to have opinions on things. If you wear said pink tutu with earrings as a dude I'll be happy to tell you that you're a weird fuck. It's simple societal truth in our culture.

I get your point, Zan. However, some conformity is a good thing. Definitely not all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYYdQB0mkEU

[Zanchief]

I'm making the following parallel without making a direct correlation to anyone's behavior in this thread. I've heard many people refer to homosexuality as abnormal, specifically on this board. Do you think it's an appropriate reaction to someone telling you that they're gay to be like whoa that's a bit abnormal. Gender dysphoria is not normal, in that less than a tenth of a percent of people have it, but would the same reaction be appropriate if you found out someone was Vietnamese, a demographic with roughly the same rarity, and consider it abnormal? Almost everyone is statistically abnormal in some way. Commenting on it to an already severely maligned grouping serves no purpose.

[Lyion]

Sexual preferences or dysphorias have little to do with hard facts, unlike ones race or gender. If you are born a guy, you remain a guy. It wouldn't surprise me if that changes someday. The societal question of is it good for us is another matter. I do find it interesting that despite the fact vaccines fuck up hundreds of thousands of kids, so many that we have a sealed court paying millions in settlements, but these are deemed ok because of 'the greater good'. However allowing a six year old to decide he's not a guy despite being born with an Y Chromosome is perfectly fine, despite the spectacular wreck this will possibly cause of his life and the increased chance of suicide at a later point.

Anyways, sexual preference is far different from a persons race. Is Polygamy natural? Should it be considered abnormal? How about sex by people under 18? Obesity likewise has much to do with genetics and is a far better correlation, as it is something we have 'control' over. Much of life is applied behavior. I believe one should be allowed to have SRS, or one should disagree and not be forced to vaccinate. I disagree with forced vaccinations controlled by mega corporations protected by sealed courts, or political correctness police telling me Joe Mindia the 49 year old truck driver who decides he wants to be Joanna should not be allowed to hear opinions from those around him because what he is doing should be 'normal'.

Tangenting off, I have zero research on this, but I've heard the biggest hostility towards the transgender community comes from the homosexual one. Fact? What does this really say about our society?

[Drem]

Sexual preferences or dysphorias have little to do with hard facts, unlike ones race or gender. If you are born a guy, you remain a guy. It wouldn't surprise me if that changes someday. The societal question of is it good for us is another matter. I do find it interesting that despite the fact vaccines fuck up hundreds of thousands of kids, so many that we have a sealed court paying millions in settlements, but these are deemed ok because of 'the greater good'. However allowing a six year old to decide he's not a guy despite being born with an Y Chromosome is perfectly fine, despite the spectacular wreck this will possibly cause of his life and the increased chance of suicide at a later point.

Anyways, sexual preference is far different from a persons race. Is Polygamy natural? Should it be considered abnormal? How about sex by people under 18? Obesity likewise has much to do with genetics and is a far better correlation, as it is something we have 'control' over. Much of life is applied behavior. I believe one should be allowed to have SRS, or one should disagree and not be forced to vaccinate. I disagree with forced vaccinations controlled by mega corporations protected by sealed courts, or political correctness police telling me Joe Mindia the 49 year old truck driver who decides he wants to be Joanna should not be allowed to hear opinions from those around him because what he is doing should be 'normal'.

Who cares? Just let them do it if they want to. Thankfully the medical industry isn't as bigoted as you are and have come up with some pretty fascinating ways to facilitate this increasingly common change.

Look how "normal" being gay is now. I mean, it was already was normal, with the Romans or the Samurai or numerous other groups throughout history. But it's cool again now. And I'm sure androgyny and gender dysphoria have always existed and in some cases been considered perfectly normal. Is sex before 18 not considered normal to you? The age of consent is below 18 in most other countries.

See, this just comes down to your personal preferences and intolerance.

I think voluntarily encouraging the resurgence of extinct diseases while in the same breath condemning someone's personal choices that have no effect on you is ridiculous. I'm the opposite, I think not vaccinating your children is barbaric and irresponsible. Gender re-assignment? I couldn't care less

[Lyion]

You completely missed my point that we have less transparency, less free speech, and more parents without a fucking clue letting their kids fuck their lives up because they are in lock step with 'movements' instead of, you know, being good parents. My point about vaccines was not that they are not immensely important, but they are 'protected' and forced based on the greater good, and the fact we don't know what they do to individual kids due to the 'closed' court is disturbing. There was a correlation there to the 'individual' so many are trying to protect here, but you completely missed it. The discussion was not about vaccines. It was about us.

As I've said, I'm for freedom. Freedom for sexual choice. Freedom for SRS. I've been for gay marriage, or more specifically any 'partnerships' and people having the same rights. I honestly don't even care about polygamy. If the Mormons want it, who cares? I want the government less involved. I do not want them telling us what to do.

However, it's a two way street. I realize vaccines are important, but I'm disturbed that in our society, where you can sue a homeowner if you fall in front of his house, we allow mega big pharma companies from even having to release records on what a large percentage of their drugs taken by millions of people are doing, and prevent them from being sued. Do you really give a fuck about 50 people in California having Measles if your kid suddenly became a brain dead vegetable? Worse, if you aren't educated you won't even realize you can get a settlement, and the only support you'll get is from a tiny stipend from SSI.

[brinstar]

boatloads of false equivalencies here jesus christ

gender is not a "fact" btw, it is a social construct

[Lyion]

Negative.

There are two genders: Male and Female. You are <usually, not barring being intersex> born male or female. You can change your name to Caitlyn or Chaz, but from a purely biological standpoint your gender does not change. Pure fact there.

I think you are confusing gender vs gender roles.

[10sun]

You are confusing gender with sex.

Sex is the biological features.
Gender is the social construct.

[Drem]

You completely missed my point that we have less transparency, less free speech, and more parents without a fucking clue letting their kids fuck their lives up because they are in lock step with 'movements' instead of, you know, being good parents. My point about vaccines was not that they are not immensely important, but they are 'protected' and forced based on the greater good, and the fact we don't know what they do to individual kids due to the 'closed' court is disturbing. There was a correlation there to the 'individual' so many are trying to protect here, but you completely missed it. The discussion was not about vaccines. It was about us.

As I've said, I'm for freedom. Freedom for sexual choice. Freedom for SRS. I've been for gay marriage, or more specifically any 'partnerships' and people having the same rights. I honestly don't even care about polygamy. If the Mormons want it, who cares? I want the government less involved. I do not want them telling us what to do.

However, it's a two way street. I realize vaccines are important, but I'm disturbed that in our society, where you can sue a homeowner if you fall in front of his house, we allow mega big pharma companies from even having to release records on what a large percentage of their drugs taken by millions of people are doing, and prevent them from being sued. Do you really give a fuck about 50 people in California having Measles if your kid suddenly became a brain dead vegetable? Worse, if you aren't educated you won't even realize you can get a settlement, and the only support you'll get is from a tiny stipend from SSI.

Fair enough, maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it really came across like "do what you want, but I'm going to call you a weirdo." Which, to me, is a waste of your energy. It's not about political correctness, really, it's about being a dick.

I also wasn't saying vaccines should be forced. People can expose their kids to that kind of risk if they want to. It's irrational fear, in my opinion, but I'm not going to call someone an idiot to their face about their choices or really do anything outside of talk shit here on the internet.

I do agree with everything else you're saying though. Except that last part, because here's the thing: There have only been something like 1300 settlements (we'll assume thousands more that didn't sue, but it doesn't really matter) dealing with brain damage or injury caused by vaccines in the last 20 years. While just from 2000 to 2010 there were 450,000+ deaths from adverse reactions to FDA-approved drugs and well over 2.5 million instances of brain damage, hospitalization, serious injury, etc....

Point is almost everyone gets vaccinated yet there are a relatively small amount of adverse reactions compared to the staggering figures for other drugs. Pick your battles

[Lyion]

You are confusing gender with sex.

Sex is the biological features.
Gender is the social construct.

I think Brin and you are very much exaggering the 'slightly' different part, but I get your point. The definition, despite it's usage, looks pretty close to what I said.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/de ... ish/gender
Definition: The state of being male or female

Usage:
The word gender has been used since the 14th century as a grammatical term, referring to classes of noun designated as masculine, feminine, or neuter in some languages. The sense ‘the state of being male or female’ has also been used since the 14th century, but this did not become common until the mid 20th century. Although the words gender and sex both have the sense ‘the state of being male or female,’ they are typically used in slightly different ways: sex tends to refer to biological differences, while gender refers to cultural or social ones.

Drem, most people today probably have no clue about the vaccine injury compensation program, or the legislation preventing big pharma companies from being sued. Again, I'm for vaccines but remove the shield and let them be sued, as they were prior to the 80s.

I do support being a dick, too. That free speech thing, you know.

[brinstar]

uhh i think you mean the definition looks pretty close to what I fuckin said

sex tends to refer to biological differences, while gender refers to cultural or social ones.

QED clown