orlando

[brinstar]

wonder why we don't even make threads about mass shootings anymore

is it because we've all heard each other's opinions on guns already?

or is it because such events are considered normal now?

there's a senate filibuster happening right now but i'm sure in the end nothing will happen until the next several dozen people get perforated by some aggrieved male shooter, etc ad nauseum

[Jay]

I'm kind of at a loss on how to go about this subject tbh. Everyone says we need a "conversation" but what haven't we talked about as a society at large?

On the left:
Semi Auto Ban
Stricter Regulations for Gun Shows
Psychological screening before registering gun owners
Less conceal. Less open carry.
Mental health evaluations for all people of all walks of life
Islam is not radical Islam. 2 very different things.
People other than Muslims can be terrorists
Support our LGBT community

On the Right:
Don't take away rights because of isolated instances
Don't take away tools of home protection
Don't take away our weapon against government tyranny
Guns and gun violence don't have a direct correlation. Some places with more guns have more gun violence. Some places with more guns have less violence.

So yeah I know much less about the righty stance since I'm more of a lefty but nothing I brought up hasn't been brought to the table before. End of the day, who fucking cares? Whichever side has more active voters controls the outcome. As long as special interests rule politics, guns are here to stay. If horrific shootings drove the point home, then I would imagine Sandy Hook would have done so already. If proof that other countries with non existent gun violence due to stricter gun control would work, well...it would have worked. People were calling Sandy Hook a hoax. People are already calling Orlando a hoax. The conversation just gets older and older and it's tiring because we as a people are talking to a political brick wall that cares more about votes than personal beliefs or what's best for the people.

At the same time, our only recourse is to just bitch and keep demanding that we ban semi autos and do more to prevent guns from getting into the hands of nutjobs. We also have to preach tolerance for the religious as well as the LGBT community and hope that in the future no one wants to shoot anybody. We have to repeat ourselves ad nauseum until the point gets across, even if doing that sucks and even if you don't think anyone's listening.

[Zanchief]

I didn't see this one as a gun thing, even though it wouldn't have happened with this level is devastation with a different (or no) firearm. This is hate, pure and simple. As soon as I heard this, I thought to myself, this guy is gay and this is the way he lashed out. Repressive ideas that come from any faith are the root cause of this.

I don't like the way it's being labelled a terrorist act though. It's just a dude who hates gays. Plenty of white people just like him.

[leah]

i thought the same thing, zan, except minus the "just." there were news articles that said "was this an act of terrorism or just a hate crime" and i think A) they're not mutually exclusive and in fact it's pretty hard to have one without the other and 2) saying something is "just" a hate crime is awfully reductive.

though also yes, semantics, i know what you meant.


ANYWAY: how in the actual fuck do people think things like this are hoaxes? the moon landing, sure, but 50 PEOPLE ARE DEAD WHAT

[Zanchief]

Well I guess all terrorism is a hate crime. I don't see this incident as ideologically or politically motivated is all.

[Jay]

That's a fair point Zan but it's also fair to say that he had an instrument to carry out his hate that ended 50 lives that I honestly can't think of reasons for anyone to need in their household. I don't want to take guns away but why does anyone need a semi automatic assault rifle in the civilian world?

Also, I don't care to get hung up on whether it should be classified as this or that. Every sort of ism contributed to this and its shitty all around.

[Zanchief]

No argument here.

[leah]

yeah. well said.

[brinstar]

cia confirmed he had no actual ties to any terrorist organization - which is certainly plausible since he claimed allegiance to three different groups before he died, all of which hate each other lol

he was also said to have been a regular at the club and to have used gay dating apps

more interestingly, he was also an NYPD academy flunkie and worked for a private security company with an atrocious record of violent behaviour from its employees

this is all beside the point, however - to me it's all about toxic masculinity and cowboy culture gone overboard


the main thrust of yesterday's senate filibuster was how we have a no-fly list for suspected terrorists but not a no-buy list for same. the argument from the other side of the aisle largely consisted of "but what about completely innocent people who wrongly get placed on such a list" and my answer is big fucking deal, if they're wrongly placed on the list there's recourse to get off of it; in the meantime oh well that's one less AR-15 out in the wild

the other point they made was the false argument about chicago gun laws and how they've failed. well yeah they failed - if you live in chicago and you need a gun, why bother with chicago gun laws when you can drive 20 minutes over to indiana, which has some of the nation's most lax gun laws, gear up, and drive 20 minutes back? state-by-state patchwork of gun laws is failing us and our communities, as it's only as strong as the weakest link

[Zanchief]

So they don't care that people could be wrongfully put on the list and can't fly, but they should retain their right to have an assault rifle?

this is all beside the point, however - to me it's all about toxic masculinity and cowboy culture gone overboard

This is right here. It's all this cowboy bullshit that's perpetuated everywhere. It's so deeply embedded into gun culture. I've been saying this for years.

[Drem]

Oh my God that stupid meme with a cowboy walking into the dust that says "GET READY, WE'RE GONNA PLAY US A REAL GAME OF COWBOYS AND MUSLIMS"

One thing I like about stuff like this is it helps refine the friends list on facebook. I never tought so many of the people I knew supported Trump and all this bigotry and hate and bullshit. Makes me sick

[Lyion]

Actually, he lived over 100 miles away, had a full time job, and a young child. He was not a regular at the club. He cased it out to be ready to kill people, I believe.

This is a pretty cut and dried hate crime. Terrorism? Sure. He was inspired by ISIS and a devout Muslim, and his family around him were extremely sympathetic to extremists. There's a lot of non substantiated talking points, such as he was gay, or he was this.. His parents were immigrants from Afghanistan and he was a very conservative and angry Muslim.

The biggest problem is there is a culture of actual hatred of the West and Freedoms by a lot of madrasses and clerics and the fact many believe we are, indeed, The Great Satan. This just gets completely ignored by the left in their lust to wage war against the second amendment. The mass murders in Paris and other places should be an avenue for more discussions, but it's sadly not.

[Drem]

What are you on about? They are avenues for discussion, but people like you are all talkin about the wrong shit.

Did you know him? How do you draw conclusions about him like that when so many that knew him or saw him at the club over the last three years are saying the opposite? Devout, conservative, angry Muslim. Inspired by ISIS. Right....

This is just a crazy person. For all we know some dude coulda told him to fuck off when he asked for a blowjob and he snapped and came back with artillery. This has nothing to do with people overseas hating us. How people like you can turn something like this into another insanely tired, racist argument about your precious second amendment or the middle east is beyond me. Might as well throw in a stupid comment about the Left while you're at it. Give me one reason that we need assault weapons in the hands of the general public? We've seen time and again how effective these weapons are at killing. Guns do kill, by the way. They're actually explicitly designed to do that.

Begone with ARs and Sig Sauers and all of that. It's overkill. Next y'all gonna be rallying for grenades because some psychos use pressure cooker bombs and you need to be able to protect yourself too, right? You should feel ashamed imo. This is a tragedy. If you're going to ignore the testimonies of all the people you disagree with, ignore the people that watched their friends die, or were married to this cunt, i don't know why you're even bothering in the first place

How can you be so selfish when now, for who knows how long, every gay person everywhere has to think at every Pride gathering or hotspot, "Please, not me. Not here. Not tonight."

[Lyion]

How can you discuss the 'wrong shit' when we're trying to find the root cause of his hate? If you've read my posts in the past, I'm the biggest anti second amendment guy on this board. I'd outlaw every gun, CCW, and require rifles be in lockers for hunting. It is a travesty that a guy can walk in anywhere and mass arm himself. It is a huge issue that won't be fixed while the NRA lobby remains strong and there are such hostile feelings about elites. It also does not help that ISIS and Terrorist attacks occur, even if they are fairly infrequently, or that Alligators eating two year olds headline the news, prompting Bubba Redneck to stupidly explain his glock coulda saved the kid, despite the fact one young kid every 50 years is killed by a gater, but dozens are accidently killed by firearms. Those are valid discussions, but less important than WHY did he hate and kill. It was not because of those reasons.

I've read the actual news stories and did the two minutes of analysis it took to figure out a guy 100+ miles away with a full time job and a family was not heading there frequently.

Was he possibly gay? Sure. That did not precipitate this attack. There are quite a few people grappling with being homosexual, and they don't show up at nightclubs with AR-15s. The more nefarious thing is was he trolling gay sites to murder people in his anger? Also possible.

He is not just a crazy person. People with mental illnesses rarely are murders, and even more infrequently mass murderers.

He agreed with ISIS and at times loathed US culture, like many do. That's the root cause of this attack. He showed sympathy towards terrorist groups time and again. I'm absolutely sure he was conflicted and probably had issues. Who doesn't? However, the bigger question is what caused this hate, and it most certainly had nothing to do with being gay, especially today when the stigma is far less... unless one is a Muslim. Most young men are somewhat angry, especially if they are in crappy jobs, or bad relationships. Most have the value set not to turn a real club into a counter strike game, though. So why did he do it?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-life-of-v ... 1466127324

At age 14, he said he could shoot an AK-47 and mimicked an airplane flying into the World Trade Center. At 26, he bragged to courthouse co-workers of terrorist ties. Weeks ago, at 29, Mateen sought to buy heavy-duty body armor and bulk ammunition.

Many of his violent outbursts aped or celebrated Islamic terrorism and he repeatedly claimed connections to known terrorists, including the Boston Marathon bombers. He cheered the 9/11 attacks on the day they happened and once threatened to shoot partygoers at a barbecue when pork, which is forbidden to Muslims, touched his hamburger.

There doesn’t appear to be a moment when Mateen’s political extremism and religious zealotry kicked into high gear. Rather, this appears to be a case of slow, steady intensification.

Law-enforcement officials say he became radicalized online yet key facts remain unknown about what drove him to launch a terror attack. Officials are probing what his wife knew about his plans. Investigators are scrutinizing Mateen’s communications and travel history to detail any direct or indirect influence he might have had with terror networks.

Central Intelligence Agency Director John Brennan on Thursday called the Orlando massacre part of a pattern of attacks Islamic State is trying to encourage by “sympathizers who have no direct links to the group.”

Also, do you believe the mother or some anecdotal account?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... ateen.html

A mother accused of domestic abuse and described as “paranoid.” A father became a supporter of the Taliban. Parents who spent years in and out of courtrooms. That’s the family that gave rise to mass-murderer Omar Mateen, who killed 49 people in the Pulse gay nightclub in Orlando last Sunday.

As investigators continue to search for a motive in the largest mass-shooting in U.S. history, they are focused intensely on the three years prior to the attacks, including the period when Mateen, who worked as a private security guard, was on a terrorism watch list.

But a portrait of the killer’s upbringing also is beginning to emerge, through snapshots of a childhood marked by domestic strife, struggles in school, and outbursts of violence, which may yield some insights about why Mateen embarked on his murderous rampage.

Seddique Mateen has insisted that he knows his son wasn’t gay. “He wasn’t gay. I know 90 percent, 95 percent,” Mateen told The Advocate, the influential LGBT news publication. Mateen doesn’t deny that Omar may have gone to gay clubs. “Based on what I’m thinking of, he must have gone scouting or something,” he said, in preparation for the attacks.

[Drem]

I think the parents were devout, and a little out of touch. If all that is actually true, you're probably right. I think he had identity issues

Sorry I took your gun comments the wrong way, this is just something that's severely affected a lot of people i know and probably read your comments with a little personal bias at the end of a long day. I apologize. Thanks for the thought-out response

I disagree about crazy people though. All of these incidents are sparked by desperate, insane people imo. Look at that Aurora shooter in particular. He was clearly gone upstairs

[Lyion]

There are a lot of people out there with real mental health issues and our country is very poor at finding help for them. Many are homeless, or very reliant on family with little support or progress.

Everyone grapples with anger, frustration, and disappointment. Just driving home at times I'm ready to start tossing hand grenades out my window. I make a choice not to, just like you do, and other normal people. This is different from someone living in the street because of paranoid schizophrenia,dementia, or Autism. I would lump the Orlando killer and most others in the former category.

I believe that Radical Islam issue is more of a passive aggressive cult type thing that at times slowly pushs people towards 'Jihad'. If anything, it's more akin to brainwashing with most of these guys being believers, which is the scary thing. Someone who has a disorder can get treatment. Someone who is a believer and feels killing is righteous is a whole other ball game, and that's pretty much what we've seen time and again.

The problem remains that despite being 'against' ISIS, many madrasas and Islamic Scholars agree with a lot of what ISIS is pushing: Caliphate, Strict Adherence to Sharia Law, Dhimmi Tax, strict Apostasy Laws, etc. Those are the people who instruct the young Omar's and foment this kind of mindset.

[brinstar]

The biggest problem is there is a culture of actual hatred of the West and Freedoms by a lot of madrasses and clerics and the fact many believe we are, indeed, The Great Satan. This just gets completely ignored by the left in their lust to wage war against the second amendment. The mass murders in Paris and other places should be an avenue for more discussions, but it's sadly not.

yeah hi i talk about this kind of shit all the time - just not in the way you want

yes, lots of people outside the USA hate us and think we're terrible, but the right (and here, if you'll notice, i am claiming an unfounded generalization just as sweeping and misguided as yours) is too busy hyperventilating with self-righteous indignation to stop for a moment and actually think about WHY

so take a moment. what are they so pissed about? do you really think it's OUR FREEDOMS (most of which are shared by a shitload of other nations, some of whom aren't even considered "the West"), or could it maybe possibly just perhaps have anything at all to do with how we as a nation treat them? around half our elected leadership happily disparages them in our halls of government and consider outrage over it to be good press. huge swaths of the electorate turn out in droves to rubber-stamp anti-sharia laws. we surveille and profile their communities, we wrap bacon around the doors to their places of worship, and for fuck's sake we make and sell bullets dipped in pigs' blood

and that's just the shit we do here. with the approval/complicity of over 90% of our elected officials, we continually rain down fiery death on their neighborhoods, villages, and cities. our remote control killbots are unstoppable and ruthless. we hit schools, we hit office buildings, and we hit hospitals (yet insist it's not a war crime). we blow up entire wedding parties full of innocent noncombatants in order to hopefully get at just one combatant on the "kill list" - a list which, by the way, is kept secret and is immune from any kind of oversight. similarly, we operate "black sites" in places like Jordan where we torture unreliable intel out of captured combatants with complete disregard for ethics and the Geneva convention. we have military bases in almost every country on every populated continent. when one of their governments misbehaves and doesn't grovel before us properly and we AREN'T feeling particularly lethal, we subject them to crippling economic sanctions that ends up hurting not elected leadership, but - you guessed it, innocent noncombatants who just want to feed their families. we piously tell ourselves we are spreading democracy and that they should be grateful, but invariably we overlook the fact that the democratic ideals we're so keen on sharing come lovingly graffiti'd on the casings of hellfire rockets. or, even in the event that it's not us doing the bombing/torturing/invading, it's usually someone using gear we happily sold them. because aside from violence our biggest export is a form of capitalism which features a complete and total disregard and open contempt for any kind of life beyond that of the shareholders.

does that justify a violent response? it shouldn't, in theory. but the next time you're at a wedding, imagine you're out getting something from the car and you look up to try to figure out where this weird whooshing sound is coming from, and suddenly the entire church blows apart, burying the mangled corpses of your entire extended family in rubble. as you ponder what to do with your shattered existence, you learn that the attack was carried out by a foreign power with a well-known history of doing all the shit i listed above. do you turn the other cheek?

[leah]

How can you be so selfish when now, for who knows how long, every gay person everywhere has to think at every Pride gathering or hotspot, "Please, not me. Not here. Not tonight."

god, this made me cry. just heartsick for people who have to live in fear because of who they love. this country is a backwards shitshow.

[Zanchief]

It just seems pointless to make this an issue of Islam and extremism when this dude was obviously very confused, and not at all your typical terrorist.

[Drem]

Amen, all of ya. I understand Lyion, absolutely, but I'm just not convinced that that discussion applies to this case

At the very least, i'm happy no-fly people can't buy guns anymore