Things aren't looking good for your Mavs, Vonk.

[vonkaar]

I'm Mike =p. He was kidding about the "it can happen" bit.

Another fun point... from another email. I thought you'd like this:

Another interesting bit...

TXCN did a fantasy basketball game against these two teams:

Team one - Dream Team:

Steve Nash - PG
Tracy MacGrady - SG
Kevin Garnett - PF
Predrag Stojakovic - "Small" Forward hehe
Shaq - C

Total Cost as of July 2004 - $136 million annually.

Team Two - Inexpensive Defensive team:

Jason Kidd - PG
Doug Christie - SG
Rasheed Wallace - PF
Ron Artest - SF
Theo Ratliff - C

Total Cost as of July 2004 - $77 million annually.

Team two wins 79 to 70.

Makes you wonder =p.

That is... if you put any stock into fantasy simulators.

[Zanchief]

Sounds like Detroit VS LA to me.

[Zanchief]

Shaq
T-Mac
Kobe
Dirk
Kidd
Jermaine O'Neil or Ben Wallace, depending on your preference. Not both though.
Bibby
Yao
Duncan
K.G.
Iverson
Peja or Webb... if you have faith... if not, Lebron because of his market.

This guy has to be a Dallas guy to rank Dirk over KG, Kidd, Duncan WTF.

Crack smoker.

Mine.

Shaq
Duncan
KG
T-Mac
Kobe
Kidd
Carter (Yea fuck you)
Ben Wallace
Dirk
Webber
Iverson
J. O'Neil
Yao
Bibby
Nash
Peja

[vonkaar]

That was MY list... they were in no order... definitely not... Duncan would be #1 for me =p.

edit: Meaning... I couldn't remember his list verbatim... so... I paraphrased him with my own list. I'd be hard pressed to come up with a list like that, in order.

[Zanchief]

I'd be hard pressed to come up with a list like that, in order.

Sack up, wuss. I did, even though I'm one nut short thanks to Lyion.

[vonkaar]

Hmm... okay, let's see...

I'll make a, "If I had to build my team around ONE player, what order would it be?" list...

1. Tim Duncan. Easy.
2. Shawn Brad... okay, bad joke...

2. Kevin Garnett.
3. Kobe Bryant (sorry, Shaq isn't smart for a 5-year plan).
4. Shaq (however, he IS smart for a 1-year plan).
5. Yao (I see future in he).
6. Dirk Nowitzki (with the right cast, he could be unstoppable)
7. Allen Iverson (More all-around than the rest of the list... less injury prone than others)
8. Tracy McGrady (NEEDS a good supporting cast, otherwise he'll merely be a 30ppg player on a 10-win team. Give him a decent GM and I'd bump him up a few notches).
9. Jason Kidd (risky pick... on so many levels).
10. Lebron James (free money).

Now... as far as pure talent, I'll list it...

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Allen Iverson
4. Jason Kidd
5. Tracy McGrady
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Peja
9. Elton Brand
10. Amare Stoudamire.

Drop AI and T-Mac from the list entirely if you were talking about 'effort'.

[Zanchief]

2. Shawn Brad... okay, bad joke...

Hahahaa

But has Dallas given up on this guy? Why don't they trade him, I'm sure some vertically challenged eastern teams would like him.

I also notice the omission of my boy Carter, jerk.

[vonkaar]

I would put him in the...
badasses that could have been Kobe Bryant if they hadn't had bad injuries - category.

Like...

Allan Houston
Steven Jackson
Vince Carter
Grant Hill...

Shawn Bradley is EASILY the biggest rookie-owner mistake in the past 20 years. Bradley had a somewhat-decent 'contract' year... he was up for an extension. He promised Cuban that he'd work out harder if Cuban gave him a max-deal(in length) and DID NOT TRADE HIM. Cuban shook on it... which shows honor... but... wtf?

Saddest note...

Bradley has made more money than Nash and Finley combined, as a Maverick.

[Zanchief]

Sad.

[Lyion]

Cuban shook on it... which shows honor... but... wtf?

Saddest note...

Bradley has made more money than Nash and Finley combined, as a Maverick.

That is sad. Then again the NBA landscape is littered with 'potential' greatness.

[vonkaar]

Heh, the best part...

Nellie (Don Nelson, Sr.) has been in Hawaii all Summer. One of our Dallas reporters called him for a quick catch-up. When asked about the Summer's recruitment agenda, he basically answered, "well, it's not my game anymore... this is Donnie (Don Nelson, Jr.) and Mark's job." Almost as if to say, "Don't blame me for the shitty team we are going to start in the Fall... I've been in Hawaii sipping cocktails."

EVERY trade that MADE SENSE in the past 5 years was a Don Nelson trade.

Every trade that made the fans say, "What the fuck??" was a Donnie Nelson or Mark Cuban trade.

Nellie is the MAN... we fans have a lot of confidence in him... he's the 2nd winningest coach of all time and a superb GM. Why did he have to let his fucking son in the picture? Why doesn't he stand up to his boss? Whoah is me 8(.

[Zanchief]

he's the 2nd winningest coach of all time and a superb GM.

Right behind asshat Wilkens.

[Malluas]

WHy is Dirk on your top 10 to build around? At least the other guys play SOME defense

Nash also isn't top 3 point guards.. thats Bibby/Iverson wash for 1&2 and Kidd, shit Dwayne Wade, eventho he is a shooting Point he is better than Nash at this point.

Nash will work well with the Suns tho.
Dallas kinda screwed itself tho not signing Nash or at least a sign and trade that includes finley, they need that guy outta there for his injuries. I do hope The Mavs eventually get better and keep Don Nelson, i like his temper tantrums and the fact he looks like Boris Yeltsin doesn't hurt either


I just wanna kno who the last 2 players to take up the kings spots. They let Buford sign somewhere else, which sucks.

[vonkaar]

Because he's largely considered the greatest international player in the history of the sport...

Because he's #3 in "effeciency points." A great guage to judge all-around players. (Only K.G. and Shaq beat him, not even Duncan)

Because he's one of the best rebounders in the game.

Because players love him.

Because he's a BARGAIN. Cheapest of the 7... as followed:

Because he's one of only SEVEN players who have been all-NBA and all-stars in the past 4 years.

Shaq
Kobe
T-Mac
K.G.
Duncan
Kidd
Dirk

That speaks volumes, son. That's elite company.

Nash also isn't top 3 point guards.. thats Bibby/Iverson wash for 1&2 and Kidd, shit Dwayne Wade, eventho he is a shooting Point he is better than Nash at this point.

Iverson isn't even a point-guard... come back when you've done your homework =p.

Otherwise, Nash beats Bibby in every major PG stat... Bibby ranks so low on these stats that he's hardly even worth mentioning in the 'pure PG' argument. Bibby is an amazing player, but he's as much a shooting-guard as he is a PG. You've been sleeping through the past 3 years if you think he holds a candle to Nash as a point-guard.

My PG list would read:
1. Kidd
2. Nash
3. Marbury (I know Zanchief will disagree on that one)
4. Parker
5. Bibby
6. Davis
7. Cassell
8. Franchise

The fact that you'd put a few non-PGs above Nash is indicative that you've seen less than 20 games in your life. There is a reason why he was considered the 2nd most important free-agent in this FA-rich Summer.

[Zanchief]

My PG list would read:
1. Kidd
2. Nash
3. Bibby
4. Parker
5. Davis
6. Cassell
7. Marbury
8. Franchise (Hate Hate Hate)
9. Rafer Alston (Hmmm I can hope)

[vonkaar]

I was kind of torn on the Davis / Cassell bit... I'm glad you kept them close together as well. I would have been embarassed if the 'other' bearer-of-nba-knowledge put Davis at 3 and Casell at 10. Good list though... very similar.

Alston is good... he just needs more playing time. That's the tough thing about point-guards in this league... you have to play a decent amount of minutes to get into your 'groove'... so you can impact the game. Travis Best was a good PG at Indiana, but hardly did a thing for Dallas because he was only here to fill in for Nash when Steve rested.

Malluas, seriously... nobody puts Bibby over Nash.
I'll list stats really quick... the most important Pure Point-Guard stats:

Assists per game:
Steve Nash: 8.8 (3rd in league)
Mike Bibby: 5.4 (18th in league)

Assists per 48-minutes
Steve Nash: 12.6 (1st in league)
Mike Bibby: 7.2 (29th in league)

Assists per turnover
Steve Nash: 3.29 (6th in league)
Mike Bibby: 2.54 (28th in league)

3-point FG %
Steve Nash: .405 (11th in league)
Mike Bibby: .392 (21st in league)

FG %
Steve Nash: .470 (31st in league)
Mike Bibby: .450 (48th in league)

FT %
Steve Nash: .916 (2nd in league)
Mike Bibby: .815 (36th in league)

This accounts for the two main reasons for a point-guard to exist... assists and a strong back-court presence. The free-throw accuracy is simply icing on the victory cake.

The only thing that Bibby beats Nash in are fucking ATTEMPTS and Minutes per game. The MPG stat makes his lower numbers even more apparent... he plays more... is injured less... started more games than Nash this year... (82/82 vs 78/82) yet still puts up lower numbers than Nash. And, it's not like Nash has had 'easier' teammates with which to augment his stats... the "Rice had Young and Montana throwing to him, no wonder he's great" argument doesn't work here. If there are two teams that resemble each other the most in the NBA, it's Dallas and Sacramento.

Nash is faster... more accurate... less selfish... more experienced... it's not even a comparison. On the ESPN player survey, Nash was voted FOURTH in the LEAGUE for 'impact' players. Bibby wasn't even mentioned. Nash makes or breaks a team. Bibby merely compliments an already good one. Compare Bibby with Parker, and we will have a similar fight.

[Zanchief]

Davis is great and lazy. I just don't think he's had the right team to really let him shine yet. I like Cassell but he is frail.

I was kidding about Alston, but hopefully he can grow into a starting point in the NBA.

[vonkaar]

Any PG that doesn't start but somehow makes an all-nba list (top 25 in some category) is good in my book.

You agree with my other assessment of Nash over Bibby, yes?

[Zanchief]

Yea but, like you, I am slightly biased.

[Malluas]

when bibby owns nash everytime they play pretty much, and owns all other point guards except Iverson. Thats puts him near the top.

He hands steve is lunch 99% of the time.

Bibby plays more D scores more points, more clutch than Nash (big playoff game shots)

Lead his team to a better record. Runs the offense that is more structured than running around and shooting.

2 different point guards.


Nash = good with many players around him. Nash has 2 not as good shooters on his team those stats go down. He runs a real offense all those stats go down. He would be best if this was late 80s early 90s. Nash can't even lead his team to a resounding series win against the Kings with 2 players being out. Disappered in the playoffs this year and most of last year and the year before, Any bigger guard can shut him down for multiple quarters in a game (Bowen, Artest, Christie). Nick Van Exel was your best PG in the playoffs 2 years ago. PLayoff record vs Bibby 6-11.

Bibby = makes everyone around him better. Can play slowdown and speed up game. Beats the lakers more than Nash . Gets guarded by Kobe Bowen etc, big guards and small forwards cause NO PG other than iverson can keep up with him, and he stills scores 20 and gets 5-7 assists. 11-6 playoff record vs Nash


BUt honestly if Kidd could shoot better he would be the top of my list. Iverson is only at the top cause of his defense, his shooting is the worst. I can score 30 points if i shot 75 times a game

Vonk and listen the national broadcasts and the national writers all put Bibby over Nash as a PG. Now nash has better things he does but as a PG itself Bibby is much better. As a leader who knows. Nash has had more years for that. But as someone i want on my team Bibby is much higher up than Nash is.


In scoring points Dallas and Sac are the same pretty much. Offenses are so different its not even debatable. One has a post game (at least somewhat of one) and is much more structured, and based off defenses movements etc etc.

Dallas is a freeforall. I watch both teams as much as i can, Dallas has a great offense but its not structured. Most of their points come off kickouts and running around like chickens with their heads cut off. Its worked for them.

But don't say they are similar. The Bucks are more like Dallas than the kings, same with the NUggets

[vonkaar]

IVERSON IS NOT A POINT GUARD

I'll respond to the rest when I go home.

[vonkaar]

Continued...

heh...

I don't know what media sources you are reading... but... I'll do a quick google...
"top ten point-guards"
"Top point guards"
"Nba's best point guards"

results:

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_5622.shtml

Top ten:
1. Jason Kidd
2. Steve Nash
3. blahblah..

HONORABLE MENTION: Mike Bibby.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/story/6668313
1. Jason Kidd
2. Stephon Marbury (wtf? oh well... nash vs bibby is all that matters here)
6. Steve Nash
7. Mike Bibby

http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/stein_marc/1481522.html
1. Kidd
2. Nash
3. Francis

Bibby? Not even mentioned.

http://www.justbball.com/forums/archive ... -4956.html
One user's list:
1.Jason Kidd
2.Gary Payton
3.Steve Francis
4.Stephon Marbury
5.Jason Williams
6.Baron Davis
7.Steve Nash
8.Tony Parker
9.Mike Bibby
10.Gilbert Arenas

Another's...

1.Jason Kidd
2.Steve Nash
3.Stephon Marbury
4.Gary Payton
5.Steve Francis
6.Baron Davis
7.Jason Williams
8.Eric Snow
9.Gilbert Arenas
10.Mike Bibby

It goes on and on... a forum full of nothing but basketball fans... about 15 lists in that post and NOBODY puts Bibby over Nash.

You even mentioned something about... each time they meet up, Bibby beats Nash...

um...
4/1/2004 -
Steve Nash: 20 points / NINETEEN Assists / 4 rebounds / 3 steals
Mike Bibby: 23 points / 3 assists / 4 rebounds / 2 steals
Result: Kings lose

3/11/2004 (the game where Bibby showed up and Nash still missed the 2 previous games due to a stomach virus)
Steve Nash: 13 points / 7 assists / 2 rebounds / 4 steals
Mike Bibby: 21 points / 10 assists / 2 rebounds / 1 steal.
Result: Kings win.
Bibby wins this one, but not by a huge margin.

1/25/2004 -
Steve Nash: 21 points / 13 assists / 1 rebound / 3 steals
Mike Bibby: 23 points / 6 assists / 4 rebounds / 1 steal.
Result: Kings lose

12/25/2004 -
Seve Nash: 14 points / 11 assists / 2 rebounds / 3 steals
Mike Bibby: 23 points / 4 assists / 3 rebounds / 1 steal
Result: Kings lose

Totals:
Nash: 68 points - Average(17) / 50 assists Average(12.5 average) / 9 rebounds Average (2.25) / 13 steals Average(3.25)

Bibby: 90 points - Average(22.5) / 23 assists Average(5.75) / 13 rebounds Average(3.25) / 5 steals Average (1.25)

So, Bibby wins on points and barely on rebounds. Dallas hardly needs Nash to score... they led the league in almost every rebounding category... and... if you could ask every coach... every GM in the league if they'd prefer points or assists from their point guard... you'll get 100% response rates on assists. So, cong Bibby on another year of getting owned by Nash. The playoffs were obviously a different series, but by that time Dallas imploded on itself and would have lost to any of the 8 playoff teams... ya'll got lucky in your first-round opponent.

Seriously... you don't know what you are talking about. You put Bibby over KIDD of all people... you keep calling Iverson a POINT-guard... you actually think Bibby is a DEFENSIVE point guard (holy shit!)... you are bewildered at my respect for Dirk (another CBS article put him above Kevin fucking Garnett for forwards)... You are simply an uneducated Kings fanboy who can't accept that your team isn't as good as you think it is.

The numbers don't lie...

The opinion of the press...

The opinion of the fans...

Apparently, you are the ONLY person outside of Sacramento that thinks Bibby is better than Nash.

[vonkaar]

I didn't comment on the similarities between Dallas and Sac because that is a fruitless endeavor. You live a sheltered life as a Sac fan... and even that title seems debatable. There isn't a sportswriter in the world that would say that Dallas and Sac aren't fucking clones... or at least over the past 4 years they have been. People have called them clones for years. It sucks that you've missed out on that, but... shrug... you seem to have missed out on a LOT of basketball knowledge.

Zanchief...

Please bring this back into the realm of the informed.

[Lyion]

I didn't comment on the similarities between Dallas and Sac because that is a fruitless endeavor. You live a sheltered life as a Sac fan... and even that title seems debatable. There isn't a sportswriter in the world that would say that Dallas and Sac aren't fucking clones... or at least over the past 4 years they have been. People have called them clones for years. It sucks that you've missed out on that, but... shrug... you seem to have missed out on a LOT of basketball knowledge.

Zanchief...

Please bring this back into the realm of the informed.

If you'd quit talking Basketball and move to Football, you'd be happier. Training Camp, it's time!

[Harrison]

Football > Basketball