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by **The Kizzy** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:36 am

You were 9 and under in the 80's.

by **Tacks** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:37 am

And I watched sports 24/7.

by **Lyion** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:40 am

You obviously are clueless about it back then from what you are saying regarding Bird.

Even ardent Bird haters who watched him then put him in the top 5 ever.

He and Magic were the greatest players of that generation, as most basketball experts would tell.

by **vonkaar** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:52 am

I don't put him in the top 5...

He's the man... clearly. EASILY in the top 10. But, my top 10 would read a 'bit' different. I'd rank it as a top 5 per position... the perfect team.

Point Guard: Magic Johnson
Shooting Guard: Oscar Robertson
Small Forward: Michael Jordon
Power Forward: Wilt Chamberlain (just as much a 4 as a 5)
Center: Kareem Abdul Jabaar

by **Tacks** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:54 am

I guess I just didn't like him because he was a Celtic.

by **Lyion** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:48 am

First, Jordan was a shooting guard foolio.

Chamberlain was a center, why the fuck would you put him at Power forward?

Abdul Jabar was overrated. The Skyhook was good but from watching him play his numbers are moreso the system and who he played with.

G Magic
G Jordan
F Dr J
F Bird
C Chamberlain

Robertson was good, but Magic was a much better PG.

Putting Jabbar over Bird at Forward really is silly. Did you ever watch these guys play?

And yeah, I have Laker friends who hate, hate, hate the Celtics Taxx.

by **Tacks** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:51 am

I don't even like the Lakers anymore, I was 5 years old and they were the best team, so I liked them.

I like the Heat now (F Shaq)

by **Arlos** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:53 pm

I'm actually old enough to remember Lakers vs Celtics in the 80s, and you know, the NBA and Basketball then completely blows away Basketball of today. It's not even close. I dunno what changed, maybe the fact that everyone comes out years early, and never picks up fundamentals any more, maybe all the top players are way too interested in stat-padding and looking good in Sportscenter highlights, I dunno. I just know that I can't stomach watching the NBA these days, when I used to watch it all the time back then. Ahhhhh, for the days of Kareem rebounding, getting the ball to Magic, who goes downcourt and lobs a perfect alley-oop pass to Worthy, who's dashed down the sideline and from out of nowhere is flying up to the basket. Now THAT was beauty. Today, with the 76-68 scores, and players who throw up more bricks than major construction companies.... /barf

PS. Lyion, we in the 80s only saw Kareem on the downslope of his career. That was when he'd reached the age when he could no longer carry a team all by himself, and was willing to be a role-player, albeit a key one. You'd have to look at his play fro back in the 70s to get an idea of what he was like in his prime. Not saying he was as good as Wilt, but he was definitely better than he was in those Lakers runs.

-Arlos

by **Lyion** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:50 pm

Arlos wrote:I'm actually old enough to remember Lakers vs Celtics in the 80s, and you know, the NBA and Basketball then completely blows away Basketball of today. It's not even close.

Totally, totally agree

Teams nowadays would get KILLED by the Laker/Celtic teams of the 80s.
There is little team and crap D now a days.

PS. Lyion, we in the 80s only saw Kareem on the downslope of his career. That was when he'd reached the age when he could no longer carry a team all by himself, and was willing to be a role-player, albeit a key one. You'd have to look at his play fro back in the 70s to get an idea of what he was like in his prime. Not saying he was as good as Wilt, but he was definitely better than he was in those Lakers runs.

I actually saw Kareem live in the mid 70s Arlos, and I remember him. He was always a very good player, but in my mind not dominating.

He is no doubt a hall of famer, but he did not single handedly make his team awesome like Bird or Magic did.

Honestly, those two guys elevated everyone around them like no other players in the 70s, 80s, or 90s.

My Dad has been a lifelong hardcore NBA fan and has opinions about guys in the 50s and 60s. I'll ask him who he compares to them, but his opinion is Magic and Bird are probably the best two ever in regards to all around play.

by **Arlos** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:48 pm

OK, I'll take your word on that, Lyion, I didn't pay much attention to sports, other than football, in the 70s. Given that I didn't hit 10 until 1980, that's not too surprising. heh. My parents were actually at UCLA (in grad school) when Kareem was there (still as Lew Alcindor), and saw him play college ball. My mom's 5'2", and said she was about eye level to his belt buckle. rofl.

I'll definitely agree too about Magic and Bird elevating their teammates. It's entirely too sad that Magic's career got cut short by AIDS, Basketball was robbed. It's true that that spark that those 2 hads elevates them over purely individual talents, such as Dr. J. It's just too bad that today, everyone seems to pattern themselves on JUST the high-flying acrobatics and dunks that Dr. J pioneered, without ever picking up the OTHER parts of the game too.

Showtime Lakers would, I think, have crushed pretty much ANY of the Jordan-led Bulls teams, but it would at least have been an interesting contest. For the rest of the teams today, it'd be like the Globetrotters vs the Washington Generals.

-Arlos

by **Lyion** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:52 am

Heck, the Isiah Thomas led Pistons with the bad boys would've thumped the Jordan led Bulls.

I don't see the 'team' emphasis.

Also, people who just see stats will not understand what an amazing pair of clutch offensive and defensive players Bird and Magic were.

Bird was probably the deadliest post/3 point combination ever to play the game. He had mastery of three pointers, drive, and the fade away post jumpshot. That and he had an uncanny eye for passes and defense.

Magic likewise could do anything. Post, drive, pass, shoot.

Nobody now a days is anything remotely close to these guys, which is a shame.

by **Zanchief** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:12 am

Lyion wrote:Nobody now a days is anything remotely close to these guys, which is a shame.

Jeez, you're such a crotchety old man.

Oh back in my day.

Yes the game has changed and in a lot of ways for the worse, but to say there are no stars right now like Bird and Magic is just ignorant.

Timmy, Shaq, KG, Kobe, those guys are all clutch, all defend and are all amazing players. Were you watching Kobe in his streak of, what was it, 12 straight 40+ pts games? The kid was amazing.

It's easy to sit back and say oh back in my day, but to be honest things haven't changed that much.

by **Lyion** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:33 am

I didn't say there were no stars. Just The teams now IMO couldn't touch the ones of the 80s

I just don't think there are players that as as good all around and at elevating their teammates as Bird & Magic were, as well as others.

Duncan is the closest. The other people you mentioned aren't.

The problem I have is its less a team game then it used to be.

by **Zanchief** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:05 pm

Detroit pistons.

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by **Lyion** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:50 pm

Zanchief wrote:Detroit pistons.

Their victory made me happy, and proved team > parts.

by **Snero** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:07 pm

3 words

Vinnie Del Negro

by **Jirig** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:02 am

Ice Man, sorry Snerp.

Del Negro in a *CLOSE* second.

by **Zanchief** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:02 am

Also, you're comparing two of the best teams of an ENTIRE DECADE to all the teams of recent years.

What about the Mavs of the 80s or the nuggets or clippers. They were sad fucking teams.

You want to compare the dominance of the Lakers and Celtics of the 80s then you get two teams of the last decade. The Lakers and the Spurs, both of which are great.

by **vonkaar** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:14 am

90s Mavs were worse thant he 80s Mavs. 90s Mavs were the second losingest team in all of professional sports (the big5 in the US)

Celtics dominated in the 60s moreso than anything in my lifetime...

Different talents for different times.

However, just like 'boxing'... it's pretty easy to guess that most modern teams would dominate the ancient ones. Training... athleticism... coaching... game-DNA... everything creates for a better player. Can you possibly argue that any single player that entered the league 30 years ago was more 'ready' for the NBA than Lebron James was last year? Please...

Put Reggie Miller or Ray Allen in a decade rife with outside shooting and either would likely be regarded today as the greatest player ever to play the game. Take Dr J out of the 70s and put him in a 2005 Pistons jersey and he'd be just another good post player. What makes SOME players great is their dominance FOR THE TIME. You can't possibly say that teams of the past could even CLOSELY compete with modern teams. Imagine the 1994 Dallas Cowboys vs the 1961 Packers. Imagine the 1999 Spurs vs the 1977 Lakers. If you think that either situation would result in the classics winning... you don't belong in this forum.

Mohammed Ali was surely an amazing boxer who dominated and did more for his sport than probably anyone... Jordon, Ruth and Gretsky are the only choices that could be argued. However... if you took Ali in his prime, as good as he was, and put him in the ring with Lewis IN HIS PRIME... it wouldn't be a contest. But that's not the point... Lennox Lewis dominated his sport - this is true. But if you use that as a measure of greatness, Ali exponentially defeats Lewis.

For 'greatness'... the dynasties of the Celtics and Lakers can't be touched by any other team. For sheer talent... FOR THEIR TIMES... Bird and Magic were something special. However, FOR THE TIMES, they didn't 'dominate' like Wilt... they didn't score like Jordon... and they didn't defend like Russell. But, for the times, they basically single-handedly keep basketball alive. That's greatness. Jordon did it after they were gone... that's greatness. Every generation needs greatness like that or people get bored.

Ignoring the dynasties... and looking at stats alone, Oscar Robertson is the clear-cut choice for 'best all-around' player in the history of the NBA.

by **Zanchief** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:00 pm

vonkaar wrote:Ignoring the dynasties... and looking at stats alone, Oscar Robertson is the clear-cut choice for 'best all-around' player in the history of the NBA.

How come we always agree on hoops? Must be cause we're always right.

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