Why I'm conservative

[Tossica]

I see it a source for ridicule.


Hahahahahaha! Poo on you!

[Langston]

I'm sure you do, Tossica.

[Spacewoman Spiff]

But... I'm a fucking demon.

No pleasure, no rapture, no exquisite sin greater... than central air.

[vonkaar]

[smiley poster=surprise]4 points[/smiley]

[Narrock]

I'm going to be as civil as I can possibly be.

First of all, I am going to admit where I stated something incorrect. The Catholic Church *does* teach that priests have the power to absolve sin.

Mighty noble of you. Thanks. And to answer your other comment about me looking up "anti-catholic" websites... that's a pretty hypocritical statement is it not? Since your source is from a pro-Catholic website. Now, moving upward and onward...

Matthew 16:19 wrote:
And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

This is Jesus speaking to Peter. Jesus clearly states that he is giving Peter the power and authority to determine who is allowed entrance into the Kingdom of God. Now, many people speak of this as Peter is the Guardian of the Gates of Heaven - meaning that when you die, you check in with Peter. Yet, that's NOT what the scripture says. Read it again. Jesus tells him that the Power of Heaven will honor Peter's judgement of those he absolves and grants entrance.

That is the classic brainwashed Catholic talking. Now I'm going to show you a different perspective... a perspective from someone who has not grown up with the Catholic church, but who has studied Catholicism with an open mind, and by someone who engages in regular discussions with some of his friends who are Catholic, and one friend who was a Catholic until he 'saw the light' so to say.

My posts are not formulated from some 'uneducated opinion' as you have claimingly deduced. Trying to get through to a brainwashed person is a very difficult task... it's like trying to break through an outer shell to get to the inner being. I would be so bold as to maintain that most Catholics are Catholics because they were raised that way, thus it was ingrained in them as tradition, not by choice. Many, many people have left the Roman Catholic Church when they finally realized the truth. You can continue to be a thick-headed numbskull... that's your choice, or you too can be open-minded and seek the truth. Maybe you're doing that now, since you said that you "used to be" a Catholic or something to that effect, which makes it even more bizarre why you are still defending it with vigor.

Now, let's take a look at some Holy Scripture, not Catechism or Apocrypha, and also hear from some former Catholics.

"Who can forgive sins? Whose sins can we forgive? Only God can forgive sins. We can forgive those who sin against us, but we cannot put away their sin. Eph. 4:32 states, "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." John 20:23 has nothing at all to do with a Catholic Priest forgiving sins. In Luke 5:17-26; Mt. 9:2-8 and Mark 2:1-12 we have an account of Jesus healing a man and saying, "Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies: Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" In Luke 7:36-50 Jesus forgave the woman which was a sinner, saying, "Thy sins are forgiven." Those who sat at the table "began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?""

In all these cases they accuse Jesus of blasphemy. They knew that only God can forgive sins and for Jesus to forgive sins would mean that He is God. Mk. 2:7, "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?" Verse 10 states, "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins." A Catholic priest cannot forgive sins. That is blasphemy. A Protestant Minister cannot forgive sins. That is blasphemy. A Nun cannot forgive sins. That is blasphemy. A Baptist Pastor cannot forgive sins. That is blasphemy.

Look at 1 Peter 2:5,9 and see that all Saved people are "an holy priesthood" and a "royal priesthood." You do not need a priest, You are a priest! Your own priest! You go straight to God through the Blood of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins? Lost friend, you have no access to God for forgiveness except through Christ!
(HolyBibleSays.org)

Here is an article written by a former Catholic "Nun" who finally saw truth. The article is entitled, "What is Idolatry?" by Mary Ann Collins (2002) / (Revised 2004):

"... is it idolatry to say that we cannot be saved unless Mary helps us? That would mean that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was not sufficient to save us. Some popes have declared that there is no salvation apart from Mary. [Note 1 gives the address of an Internet article with quotations from popes.]

Is it idolatry to say that there is no salvation without the Pope? Again, that would mean that Jesus is not enough. Some popes have declared that no person can be saved unless he or she submits to the Pope. [See Note 1.]

Is it idolatry to call the Pope "Holy Father"? In the Bible, that term is only used for God. Jesus used it when praying to His heavenly Father. (John 17:11)

Is it idolatry to sing hymns to the Pope? It is traditional to sing papal hymns. You can buy recordings of them online. [Note 2]

Is it idolatry to say that the Pope is "God on earth"? In 1894, Pope Leo XIII said that as Pope, he held on the earth the place of God Almighty. Pope Pius X ruled from 1903 to 1914. He said that when the Pope speaks, it is Jesus Christ Himself speaking. Pope Pius XI reigned from 1922 to 1939. He said that because he was the Vicar of Christ he was "God on earth". Is it idolatry to address the Pope as "your holiness"? The protocol of the Catholic Church requires it. [Note 3 gives the addresses of Internet articles with these quotations and with information about "your holiness".]

Is it idolatry to venerate Mary and the saints? According to "Webster's Dictionary," one definition of "veneration" is "expressing reverent feeling; worship" and one definition of "devotion" is "religious fervor". Catholic Canon Law says that all Catholics should cultivate devotion to Mary, including praying the rosary. (The rosary has ten prayers to Mary for every one prayer to God.) Every fixed altar in churches is required to have a relic of a saint. [Note 4]

Is it idolatry to venerate "images"? Canon Law says that Catholic churches should have "holy images" (statues, pictures, etc.) and that Catholics should venerate these images. [Note 5] In contrast, the Bible forbids the veneration of statues or other images. It says,

"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them" (Deuteronomy 5:8-9).

The Infant of Prague is an example of the extent to which veneration of images can be taken. It is a statue of Jesus as a baby. It is kept in a church in Prague, Czechoslovakia. Miracles are attributed to this statue. Pilgrims come from around the world to venerate it. The statue wears expensive clothing and a gold crown set with jewels. It has 70 different sets of clothes. In 1995 it was carried in solemn procession through the streets of Prague. The procession was led by two cardinals. Churches in many countries have replicas of this statue. [Note 6 has links to Internet articles with pictures.]

Is it idolatry to worship consecrated bread? The Catholic Church says that during Mass the bread and wine literally turn into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Catholics are taught to bow before the bread and to worship it. According to Catholic Canon Law, Catholics are supposed to worship the Eucharist with "supreme adoration". [Note 7]

If the answer to any of these questions is "yes," then the Catholic Church teaches its members to practice idolatry."

I can go on and on and on "owning" you over and over again, but just let me know when you're ready to concede. My goal here is to not continue owning you, or flaming you, etc... but that you admit defeat and own up to the truth. The ball is in your court, both Ugzugz and Diabolik...

[The Kizzy]

Wasn't there a huge thread that said the Bible contradicts itself on numerous occasion? I think this is one of those occasions. I read somewhere that you can take any religious view point and find scripture defending both sides of said viewpoint.

[vonkaar]

For the record...

Mindia received a much harsher ass kicking when it was He vs Me. As it is, he's just arguing personal interpretation... and that's hard to argue in a convincing manner. Back in the first argument, he was arguing in the 'high and mighty judgmental' bit... which is EASY to argue... he's since dropped down and isn't trying to act all holy like last time. He's still judgmental, but he's at least admitting his sins... making the hypocrisy bit a lot harder to prove.

Hint for all of ya...

He can't answer one, very simple question...

If 'faith' is good enough for him, why isn't it enough for Catholics? He knows... he accepts that the Bible... the church... everything his religion stands on went through, at one time, the decision making process of MAN. He accepts this because he has FAITH that the end-message was received. He believes that the Bible, as it is today, is a perfect written account of God's word. That's faith. Can't argue that. But... if a Catholic believes the same thing, why is faith insufficient?

Argue that...

Trying to prove your valor in the Biblical verse wars will never win it... 99% of the Bible is personal opinion... so... how do you plan to change his outlook on it? It can't be done. Stick with faith. You can't shake HIS faith but then, he will also have to accept that HE can't shake a Catholic's faith. Faith can't be argued.

Homosexual sun-flower people? Remember?

[vonkaar]

Wasn't there a huge thread

http://www.namelesstavern.org/phpBB2/vi ... .php?t=248

Yes, Kizzy.

[Langston]

First of all - we're not moving on to the "idolatry" issue till we close out the Confession issue. So cut and paste to your clipboard and save for later discussion. I will answer it once we put the first one to rest.

To rebutt:

That is the classic brainwashed Catholic talking. Now I'm going to show you a different perspective... a perspective from someone who has not grown up with the Catholic church, but who has studied Catholicism with an open mind, and by someone who engages in regular discussions with some of his friends who are Catholic, and one friend who was a Catholic until he 'saw the light' so to say.

My posts are not formulated from some 'uneducated opinion' as you have claimingly deduced. Trying to get through to a brainwashed person is a very difficult task... it's like trying to break through an outer shell to get to the inner being. I would be so bold as to maintain that most Catholics are Catholics because they were raised that way, thus it was ingrained in them as tradition, not by choice. Many, many people have left the Roman Catholic Church when they finally realized the truth. You can continue to be a thick-headed numbskull... that's your choice, or you too can be open-minded and seek the truth. Maybe you're doing that now, since you said that you "used to be" a Catholic or something to that effect, which makes it even more bizarre why you are still defending it with vigor.

None of this is pertinent to the conversation and will not be discussed. Try to keep to the topic.

Now, let's take a look at some Holy Scripture, not Catechism or Apocrypha, and also hear from some former Catholics.

I quoted scripture, not catechism, not the Apocrypha, and your "former Catholics" are allowed their opinions - but they're irrelevant to this discussion.

"Who can forgive sins? Whose sins can we forgive? Only God can forgive sins. We can forgive those who sin against us, but we cannot put away their sin. Eph. 4:32 states, "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." John 20:23 has nothing at all to do with a Catholic Priest forgiving sins. In Luke 5:17-26; Mt. 9:2-8 and Mark 2:1-12 we have an account of Jesus healing a man and saying, "Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies: Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" In Luke 7:36-50 Jesus forgave the woman which was a sinner, saying, "Thy sins are forgiven." Those who sat at the table "began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?""

In all these cases they accuse Jesus of blasphemy. They knew that only God can forgive sins and for Jesus to forgive sins would mean that He is God. Mk. 2:7, "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?" Verse 10 states, "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins." A Catholic priest cannot forgive sins. That is blasphemy. A Protestant Minister cannot forgive sins. That is blasphemy. A Nun cannot forgive sins. That is blasphemy. A Baptist Pastor cannot forgive sins. That is blasphemy.

You state that they are blasphemy - based on what the Pharisees upheld to be law. If you are ANY kind of Christian, you should know and understand that Jesus came and "updated" the laws. Before Christ, man had not been empowered to forgive sin as it was Christ himself who bestowed that power. I have already quoted the scripture from John where Christ, in his OWN words (not someone's interpretation... yours OR mine) stated that he gave the leaders of his followers the ability to forgive sin. This can not be disputed - it is Christ's own words.

What I'm seeing in your scriptural quotes and in your interpretation of them is an Old Testament, dare I say Judaistic, approach to Church Law. Correct me if I am wrong here, but don't Protestant denominations claim that the New Testament laws supercede those of the Old Testament? Wouldn't, then, the Pharisees and others claiming that Christ's claims of forgiving sins to be blasphemy then be out-dated based upon the very changes that Christ himself wrought?

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Christ bestowed the power, plain and simple. I'll quote the scripture for you again. I want to hear how this:

As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained'

could be misconstrued as anything OTHER than Christ bestowing the power to forgive sin. Let me boldface this line for you, to make it clearer:

Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them

Is that sinking in yet?

Now, please share with me, how is it blasphemy again? Furthermore, only ordained priests of the Church have the power to absolve sin. Nuns do not.

Look at 1 Peter 2:5,9 and see that all Saved people are "an holy priesthood" and a "royal priesthood." You do not need a priest, You are a priest! Your own priest! You go straight to God through the Blood of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins? Lost friend, you have no access to God for forgiveness except through Christ!
(HolyBibleSays.org)

Let me quote the entire piece of scripture as opposed to picking a couple of keywords out of it, as you did in order to try to make your point:

Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

"Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."

Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

"The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,"

and

"A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense."

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Upon reading the entire passage, what you claim it says is NOT the case. Nice attempt at using soundbits from the Bible to try to prove your point.

The rest of your article is about Idolatry and is the words of another person. We are discussing Scriptural references here. For every "source" you can come up with, I can come up with just as many. Your initial argument is that there is no Scriptural basis to the Catholic beliefs - either use scripture or drop your claim. I will not rebutt the idolatry argument, yet, and I will only do so at such a point that you begin the argument with scripture as you stated is your basis for argument.

[Narrock]

For the record...

Mindia received a much harsher ass kicking when it was He vs Me. As it is, he's just arguing personal interpretation... and that's hard to argue in a convincing manner. Back in the first argument, he was arguing in the 'high and mighty judgmental' bit... which is EASY to argue... he's since dropped down and isn't trying to act all holy like last time. He's still judgmental, but he's at least admitting his sins... making the hypocrisy bit a lot harder to prove.

Hint for all of ya...

He can't answer one, very simple question...

If 'faith' is good enough for him, why isn't it enough for Catholics? He knows... he accepts that the Bible... the church... everything his religion stands on went through, at one time, the decision making process of MAN. He accepts this because he has FAITH that the end-message was received. He believes that the Bible, as it is today, is a perfect written account of God's word. That's faith. Can't argue that. But... if a Catholic believes the same thing, why is faith insufficient?

Argue that...

Trying to prove your valor in the Biblical verse wars will never win it... 99% of the Bible is personal opinion... so... how do you plan to change his outlook on it? It can't be done. Stick with faith. You can't shake HIS faith but then, he will also have to accept that HE can't shake a Catholic's faith. Faith can't be argued.

Homosexual sun-flower people? Remember?

Ahh, it's very nice to actually hear a voice of reason... thank you Vonk.

To answer your question, yes faith is enough for Catholics. But the discussion does not end there.

If you saw your best friend consistently driving around in his car without wearing his seat belts, would you say anything to him? Something to the effect of, "Hey Taxx, that's kind of stupid driving around without your seat belt because if you get in a collision you could get ejected from your ugly green POS car and get killed." He would then come back and say something completely stupid like, "Hey Vonk, I've never worn a seat belt, nobody in my family wears their seat belt, and I haven't been in an accident yet."

You can come up with numerous examples of this, and unless it is pointed out to you by an outside source, then you'll never "get it." Kapish?

[Narrock]

Ugzugz sez:

Upon reading the entire passage, what you claim it says is NOT the case. Nice attempt at using soundbits from the Bible to try to prove your point.

The rest of your article is about Idolatry and is the words of another person. We are discussing Scriptural references here. For every "source" you can come up with, I can come up with just as many. Your initial argument is that there is no Scriptural basis to the Catholic beliefs - either use scripture or drop your claim. I will not rebutt the idolatry argument, yet, and I will only do so at such a point that you begin the argument with scripture as you stated is your basis for argument.

You got owned little altar boy.

[The Kizzy]

What is your fixation with Taxx? He doesnt give up teh bootay

YOu in no way shape or form owned Ugzugz, sorry to say

[Narrock]

What is your fixation with Taxx? He doesnt give up teh bootay

YOu in no way shape or form owned Ugzugz, sorry to say

That's because your ego is blocking you from admitting truth. You KNOW I owned him.... over and over again. He knows jack shit about his own religion, or former religion, whatever his case may be.

It's ok though, I accept your silent apology.

[The Kizzy]

There is no apology.

I could care less about Ugzugz to be honest. I just think MINDIA IS DUMB.

I accept your silent admittal to being a dumbass, hypocritical bible thumper.

[vonkaar]

You aren't allowed to say "OWNED!" about your own posts...

someone else has to come in and say that.

This is why I have 14 accounts on NT. I ALWAYS own people.

[Tacks]

How cute, Mindia is still talking about me.

[Narrock]

There is no apology.

I could care less about Ugzugz to be honest. I just think MINDIA IS DUMB.

I accept your silent admittal to being a dumbass, hypocritical bible thumper.

Judging by your idiotic posts alone I can pretty much guarantee you that my IQ is higher, no... much higher, than yours.

[Narrock]

You aren't allowed to say "OWNED!" about your own posts...

someone else has to come in and say that.

This is why I have 14 accounts on NT. I ALWAYS own people.

Yeah, as if one of these gaggle of retards is going to admit defeat or admit that their buddy got owned... RIIIIIIGHT

[Tacks]

There is no apology.

I could care less about Ugzugz to be honest. I just think MINDIA IS DUMB.

I accept your silent admittal to being a dumbass, hypocritical bible thumper.

Judging by your idiotic posts alone I can pretty much guarantee you that my IQ is higher, no... much higher, than yours.

As displayed by your vast knowledge of anything at all since you came back, right?

[Narrock]

LOL you are teh funney.

[The Kizzy]

Ok here we go, my IQ is much higher than yours, I am much smarter than you.

You know what, I bet you do know alot more about being a hypocrytical wanna be who likes to fuck women who can't keep their asses clean. That is about as much as I will give you.

If you think about it, it is truly classic, you got owned, and your only comback is "I'm smarter than you"

[Tacks]

Yeah well I gaurantee my god can kick your god's ass.


So I win.

LIEK OMGZZ

[Narrock]

Ok here we go, my IQ is much higher than yours, I am much smarter than you.

You know what, I bet you do know alot more about being a hypocrytical wanna be who likes to fuck women who can't keep their asses clean. That is about as much as I will give you.

If you think about it, it is truly classic, you got owned, and your only comback is "I'm smarter than you"

Your adolescent posts make me

[The Kizzy]

The same could be said about you.

[Tacks]

OMGZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ