namelesstavern.net

He's serious isn't he?

Zanchief wrote:

Tikker wrote:I don't see the point in a card game where not everyone is playing from the same deck

Because then not everyone's playing with the same deck, thus an extra element of strategy.

I don't see it that way at all

I think there's more strategy involved when there's a finite, defined deck

to each their own tho I guess

The strategy is in creating a good deck. This sometimes involves a lot of knowledge and research but that can hardly be viewed as less strategic.

Your idea of a finite defined deck is in the fact that all cards are available to all players.

You just have no idea wtf you're talking about.

Harrison wrote:Your idea of a finite defined deck is in the fact that all cards are available to all players.

You just have no idea wtf you're talking about.

You are wrong like usual

Zanchief wrote:I grew up in a house ... of cards

edit:

i see what tikker's saying here. what i personally don't know about MTG is where the cards come from? okay, according to harri's post, you can buy a "core" set - but in order to add cards beyond that, don't you have to spend more money? and aren't there cards that are more rare than other cards, so that you have to either purchase these cards separately from other people, or buy enough additional packs until you get one? the fact that you still have to figure out a smart way to use such a card to your advantage i'm sure still requires a ton of strategy, but the fact that you have to actively go GET that card somewhere makes it seem like the competition has been cheapened or commercialized somehow (or at least separated from actual gameplay).

on the other hand, if you show up for a poker game where you have access to exactly the same cards that your opponents do, the whole "i went out and bought 25 packs of cards until i got this super awesome card" facet of the game is rendered completely nonexistent. the playing field is completely level when there is a standardized deck, and all that can possibly remain is the skill levels of the competitors and the luck of the draw (which i assume is nonexistent in MTG, but that's a separate discussion).

see what i'm saying? i have no doubt that a high-quality game of MTG takes tons of strategy and knowledge to play and win, but as long as bettering your deck requires actual financial investment, IMO the purity of the game is tainted since a considerable percent of your potential to win correlates to how much money you spend on your deck.

coincidentally, i also believe MLB should have salary caps

Not too far off~

they're just totally different. there's no reason to compare poker to MTG. MTG is a collector's card game. that's why they're called CCGs

poker's for gambling. they're completely different

derp a derp, i get that they're different

i was just trying to understand HOW they're different

The thing is, to be a serious CCG player takes a certain amount of money, just like many other hobbies. If you want to be a SCUBA diver, you'll buy diving gear. You want to play a miniatures wargame like Napoleonics or Warhammer or something, you'll buy little metal army men and then spend weeks painting them. If you're going to be a successful CCG player, you'll spend the necessary $$$ to get the cards you need to put together the deck you want to play.

Note also, though, that CCGs in specific have several different formats to what is and isn't legal in your decks. For example, MOST Magic the Gathering tournaments use only more recent sets, and don't allow the earliest (and insanely expensive) cards. So, if you compete in tournaments that only use those formats, whether or not you have those uber-expensive cards doesn't matter at all. There's even a more level format, the Sealed deck format as well. That's where everyone gets exactly the same amount of sealed booster packs, and then everyone has to make a deck for the tournament based ONLY on the cards that are in the packs they open.

Anyway, for me, with the WOW CCG, I do a LOT of testing with an online program that doesn't require purchasing an cards at all. That way I can test out the decks I want to play, and figure out EXACTLY the cards I need, so I can just buy the specific singles I need. Also, WOW TCG's cards are a lot less pricy than many MTG cards. I think the most expensive any card has ever gotten that is actually used in the game is $40. There are more expensive cards, but those are expensive because they give you a unique mount or pet in the MMO. (see: Spectral Tiger, etc.)

-Arlos

Well Brin, as Arlos mentioned, it depends what kind of game you want to play. Tournaments all seem a bit silly to me aside from Sealed Deck Booster drafting, which puts everyone on an even playing field since everyone has to create a deck from the sealed packs that are handed to them.

As for recreational games, money will never beat out properly constructed decks. Certain cards can help, but if you limit yourself to a budget you can still make very strong decks. Some cards are ridiculously overpriced because demand is high for them for reasons outside of the game (like Vampire cards right now, or elf / dragon cards). Price does not always equate to quality. It still comes down to strategy, both in deck construction and play.

Sure, if you want to by a single starter pack, that’s not going to cut it against someone who has a real deck. But with a bit of research you can buy singles online for $0.20 – $2.00 a card and make you own deck. That’s the fun of MTG. Making decks and playing them and realizing they aren’t good!

and realising they aren't good. so true

i don't play all the time at all but a year or two ago i got back into it pretty heavy with some friends. i had a badass doran deck from the Lorwyn era. we never got hardcore and played type 2 or anything but we did play unlimited w/ eachother a lot

and i agree w/ zanchief that money does not equal a good deck. nothing's more than $20 except wrath of god maybe. took me like $60 to build my green/black/white Doran deck with four birds of paradise among other old "expensive" cards. i only had to pay more than $2 for a few of the cards in the deck. and it was quick out the gate and could manhandle most things i went up against

but then the strategy comes in, and you end up pitting what you think is some amazing fighting deck up against your friend's secret timesink/mill stone/howling mine/combat-cancelling/life-buffering deck of rape that has 0 creatures except for spore frogs to stop combat, and you kinda start to realise magic is deep as the ocean and the possibilities for strats and decks are endless. and every turn you're saying, helplessly, "i can't do anything, go" and he mills another two or three off your library and you're drawing five cards a turn discarding everything goin "shit i can only do this three more turns"

it's pretty fun /shrug

I was always partial to my Titania's Song deck.

90% artifacts with a few big sorceries that killed off critters and 4 Titania's Songs for after the critter death.

Ps brinstar got it 100%

Well you have two people (you and brinstar) who aren't familiar with MTG at all claiming one thing about it. Then you have a whole bunch of other people who are very familiar claiming your wrong...I don't really know how many times we can say it really. I guess if you want to be right you'll believe anything.

Zanchief wrote:Well you have two people (you and brinstar) who aren't familiar with MTG at all claiming one thing about it. Then you have a whole bunch of other people who are very familiar claiming your wrong...I don't really know how many times we can say it really. I guess if you want to be right you'll believe anything.

i didn't really claim anything (or at least i didn't mean to)

i was just trying to understand the difference before forming an opinion

I play SoD.

Tikker claimed hearts has more strategy then MTG. I disagreed. You agreed with him. I disagreed. Tikker agreed that you got "it" 100%.

Your claim that it is inherently less strategic based on the way the cards are acquired doesn't really float since you aren't even that familiar with the process to begin with and are making some rather large assumptions.

Tikker just seems to be digging himself deeper in a debate (argument) that's evolved past his original glib comments and doesn't want to concede. I, on the other hand, am chemically unable to drop something, especially when I know I’m right, so here we have it.

Oh, and now that I re-read brin's original statement, there's a couple things more to mention: Luck of the draw and player skill are both HUGE elements to any CCG.

It's still a card game, and you can have at most 4 of any 1 card in a deck, which are generally 60 cards in size. So, if you're desperately seeking one specific card that is vital to your plans, but through bad luck with randomization while you shuffled, all 4 are in the last 15 cards of the deck, you're probably going to lose. On the other hand, if you do the equivalent of drawing a straight flush and get a god-hand, you're probably going to win.

As for player skill, that's in knowing what the right play is to make at any given moment, and when you might want to hold off playing something in anticipation of a bigger threat, or to use at a more decisive moment. There's a thousand little ways that skill matters. It's obvious it does, though, as in any CCG, if you look at the winners of major tournaments, you see the same group of people always up near the top of the heap. (and no, it's not because they got better cards. At the major tournament level, EVERYONE has access to the same cards as everyone else. If you didn't, you wouldn't be competing at that level.)

-Arlos

Tikker just seems to be digging himself deeper in a debate (argument) that's evolved past his original glib comments and doesn't want to concede. I, on the other hand, am chemically unable to drop something, especially when I know I’m right, so here we have it.

This is taking the wrong turn

I'm trying to find a better way to explain. Hearts bridge etc are a more pure strategic card game

You can buy a dollar pack of cards deal em out and have a good strategic game


A ccg you need to invest x amount of time and money into your own cards before you can begin to replicate the experience of bridge

Yes I get there's a strategy element to building a deck. You could may even compare it to the bidding process in bridge

I just personally feel you have to be a better play to win consistently when everyone is working from an identical stack of cards



Ie how would a mtg game go if everyone had identical decks?

Play sealed booster draft. Everyone has an even chance going in. It's a very popular tournament type.

i don't seem to be getting my point across very well, but let me just say that i dislike CCGs less and less the more i read about them in this thread

i wouldn't ever play them because the collection aspect does not appeal to me at all, though

Zanchief wrote:Play sealed booster draft. Everyone has an even chance going in. It's a very popular tournament type.

Does a sealed booster draft deck include the exact same cards for everyone or is everyone playing the odds and hoping for a good deck to start with?

A booster draft is a very different format from normal sealed decks.

Normal sealed deck, everyone gets the same number of booster packs, and construct a 30 card deck from only the cards contained in those packs. For WOW TCG, it's 6 booster packs. This format does have some degree of luck, as if you get a better set of awesome cards than someone else, you do stand a better chance of winning. Skill in deck construction does play a huge role here, too though. For example, you might have one GREAT card for a certain deck build, but nothing much to support it, while another run of cards might not have anything that individually strong, but might synergize together far better and thus make for a much better deck in the end.

Booster draft though, is very very different. In this format, everyone is given 3 booster packs, and everyone in the tournament is divided into groups of 8 people. Then, everyone opens a pack at the same time and has 1 minute to look through the pack and select 1 card out of the pack. There is every likelihood it might not even be the rare that is picked, as some rares are excellent in a fully constructed deck, but in a limited tournament like draft, might be effectively useless. After that 1 card is selected, you take the rest of the cards in the pack, place them face down on the table, and then pass them to the person on your left. You'll then pick up the set that was just passed to you by the player on your right, pick it up, and again select 1 card from it, before passing the rest to your left. This continues until there's no more cards to pass. This entire process is repeated with the 2nd booster pack, except you pass to the right this time. Then, with the 3rd pack, you pass back to the left. Again, once you're done, you make a 30 card deck from what you drafted.

There is vast amounts of strategy involved in this format. Not only in knowing what cards are good or bad, but you need to read the signals from around the table in what is getting passed to you, as if several people are going for the same style of deck, they're all going to find themselves with less potent decks, simply because all the good cards for that kind of deck are spread among so many people. You also need to control what kind of signals YOU are sending out about what is and is not available by what you're passing. You might find yourself taking a really great card with your first pick or 2 of the draft, only to find that nothing supporting those cards is getting sent your way, but another run of cards good for another deck type are freely available, so you'll switch tacks mid-stream. You might also find yourself confronted with 2 cards that you want both of, so you have to decide which to take, and which you think is most likely to potentially make it undrafted around the table and come back to you so that you can take it later in the draft.

In any case, once people make their decks, they play strictly only the other people in their draft group, for 3 rounds. After those 3 rounds are done, you're done with that deck you drafted, and won't be using it again. Then, everyone in the tournament will be re-seeded, and then new draft groups of 8 will be created, and those groups will repeat the entire drafting process, making decks, etc.

Often times, at least with the WOW TCG, draft is used as an adjunct or second phase to a tournament as well, so it tests multiple aspects of skill with the game. (ie, not only can you play well, and create a good contstructed deck for the first part of the tournament, but can you draft well, create a good draft deck, and play it well for the 2nd phase.) The WOW world championships this last year, for example, had 9 rounds of constructed play on day 1. Once that day was done, the top-64 people made the cut for going on to day 2. Day 2 was entirely draft. The 64 people were divided into 8 pods of 8 players. Each pod did an entire draft run like I described above, making decks and then playing 3 rounds of games. After those 3 rounds were done, the 64 people were re-seeded, divided up into new draft pods of 8, and the entire process run again. At the end of the day, the 8 people with the best combined record between the 9 constructed rounds and 6 draft rounds proceeded onto the finals on day 3, which was back to Constructed again, using the decks they'd used on day 1. For a regional championship, we did 5 rounds of constructed and then 1 draft set, and the 8 of us with the best record made it to the finals on day 2.

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded answer, but draft is kinda hard to explain in 1-2 sentences.

-Arlos

brinstar wrote:i don't seem to be getting my point across very well, but let me just say that i dislike CCGs less and less the more i read about them in this thread

i wouldn't ever play them because the collection aspect does not appeal to me at all, though

Which really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand (whether the game is more or less strategic then hearts) aside from demonstrating why you would have an inherent bias to dislike the game to begin with because of another reason which I don't think you fully understand. MTG does have a financial commitment of say 20 to 50 dollars a deck. If this is simply more then you’re willing to invest in a card game then I totally get that. But this isn't a pokemon game where people just buy packs in the hopes of collecting them all. I don't know anyone who treats the game that way. Everyone I know just buys the singles online that they want.