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Zanchief wrote:

Martrae wrote:

Zanchief wrote:

Martrae wrote:As long as the government is in charge of the public schools, an informed populace is a pipe dream anyway.

because?

Because they only teach what the government wants you to know and they teach to the stupidest in class. You seriously have to ask this question? Public school education is a travesty.

That's two completely different issues. One is wrong and one is right.

The governement doesn't have an agenda to teach kids what they want them to know, they teach them what they NEED to know.

Harrison wrote:

Zanchief wrote:

Martrae wrote:

Zanchief wrote:

Martrae wrote:As long as the government is in charge of the public schools, an informed populace is a pipe dream anyway.

because?

Because they only teach what the government wants you to know and they teach to the stupidest in class. You seriously have to ask this question? Public school education is a travesty.

That's two completely different issues. One is wrong and one is right.

The governement doesn't have an agenda to teach kids what they want them to know, they teach them what they NEED to know.

Yes you are funny.

Let me clarify my point. The school systems(there pretty bad here too, so I'll assume there the same over there) don't teach kids much of anything ot be honest, but they don't slant their teachings to fit a political message that changes ever 4 years.

Doesn't make much sense to rewrite a curriculum twice a decade now does it.

OMG I DON'T BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION!

That's great, but in the absence of presenting deities as fact, it's the most scientific explanation there is.

Oh yes, I totally agree there. Evolution for me was barely touched upon. Creationism doesn't belong in classes. Regardless if even I myself believe in it... (not that bible bullshit either)

I'm laughing at the comment about teaching them what they need to know.

Kids aren't taunt to sit Indian style anymore, it's now called Criss-cross applesauce.

A lot of schools have communal bins for all crayons brought to school...it's teaching redistribution of wealth (ie welfare) at the kindergarten level.

Until the recent law change, schools could tell parents their child had to be on Ritalin or that child couldn't come back to school, even if the doctor didnt' think the child needed it.

Zero Tolerance (which also mean zero thinking for administrators) has led to thing like kids being suspended for bringing fake swords to school for plays like Romeo and Juliet.

And if you think teachers don't have their own agenda, you are sadly mistaken. I see tidbits all the time about little things that teachers say. Like the teacher that told the class "war is evil" after a couple military jets flew over the class at recess. Stuff like that leaves a big impression on small children especially when it made by an authority figure.

My friend Anne is probably still convinced the internet and media is controlled by the Bush administration.

Her political science teacher had that put in her brain...I want to meet this weasel fuck.

I show her an article about John Kerry and his career in politics from when he got back from vietnam to present...she told me it's fake

The Bush administration put it there...

Ya know, everyone is a 'lil' right in this discussion. Even Mindia.

School has moved from a centre of learning to an institute of political correctness.

Mindia is right that Creationism should be taught. Rust is right in that it should not be taught as 'science' because that it is not. Zan is right that school is occupied with life skills and 'learning' as it should be. Harrison is right in his point, because many US teachers suck ass.

It's a sad thing, but our educational system has severe issues. That said you get out of it what you put into it. So many want it to instantly make their kids intelligent and college bound. These are the same people who feel everyone should 'win' at life automatically and be given everything.

"To debate evolution is similar to debating whether the Earth is round. It is an absurd proposition."

Lyion wrote:Mindia is right that Creationism should be taught.

I completely agree, and it is taught. In church and not in our public schools. If you choose to teach creation in church you MUST have a seperate class for every single religion that has a creation story. Every student would have to be able to take a class on their religions story. This would be impossible for any public school to do. Of course then there would be uproars from church groups that it was not being taught correctly.

The best possible way to teach it, is in your church where they beleive as you and will teach it the way you want it taught. If there is a privatly funded school that has the same beleif structure as your church, let your child goto school there. They will get both their regular schooling as well as their religios teachings.

Gidan wrote:

Lyion wrote:Mindia is right that Creationism should be taught.

I completely agree, and it is taught. In church and not in our public schools. If you choose to teach creation in church you MUST have a seperate class for every single religion that has a creation story. Every student would have to be able to take a class on their religions story. This would be impossible for any public school to do. Of course then there would be uproars from church groups that it was not being taught correctly.

The best possible way to teach it, is in your church where they beleive as you and will teach it the way you want it taught. If there is a privatly funded school that has the same beleif structure as your church, let your child goto school there. They will get both their regular schooling as well as their religios teachings.

That has an air of truth to it too. The different Christian denominations would bicker about whether creationism is being taught "correctly." Even my girlfriend said that she would rather put her children through a public school than a Christian school (unless it was an Adventist school) for that very same reason.

Gidan wrote:

Lyion wrote:Mindia is right that Creationism should be taught.

I completely agree, and it is taught. In church and not in our public schools. If you choose to teach creation in church you MUST have a seperate class for every single religion that has a creation story. Every student would have to be able to take a class on their religions story. This would be impossible for any public school to do. Of course then there would be uproars from church groups that it was not being taught correctly.

The best possible way to teach it, is in your church where they beleive as you and will teach it the way you want it taught. If there is a privatly funded school that has the same beleif structure as your church, let your child goto school there. They will get both their regular schooling as well as their religios teachings.

Neither my church or my children's school is responsible for their religious learning. That responsibility falls to me as their father and to no other.

Creationism is a religious belief, it is in no way whatsoever scientific. As such, it has no place in public schools whatsoever. Indeed, it cannot even be considered to be brought up in school, for the very reasons Gidan mentioned: no two faiths, even two similar faiths such as different protestant sects, will have the same exact beliefs on it. So you would indeed have to teach 87 different versions of the creation myth; and what would you do with athiest students while this was going on?

I agree completely that if you want your child to learn the religious myths particular to the faith you follow, send them to a private religious school of your denomination. Just be aware that when they get out into the real world, if they go around claiming evolution is bunk, they're going to get laughed at a lot, and it's going to be a negative for them when they apply for college, if they're going into any sort of scientific discipline, especially biology.

Again: religious teachings of any kind have no place in either public schools or government policy. Period. That separation of Church and State was the absolute incontrovertable documented intention of the Founding Father, Jefferson, who wrote the Bill of Rights. It doesn't get any more simple than that.

-Arlos

Arlos wrote:Creationism is a religious belief, it is in no way whatsoever scientific.

That isn't entirely true.

Harrison wrote:

Arlos wrote:Creationism is a religious belief, it is in no way whatsoever scientific.

That isn't entirely true.

Would you like to give more information then saying its not entirely true?

It doesn't rule out scientific merit just because you can't prove it yet.

I have no religious ties to my belief that we aren't "just existing" with no intelligent design to start the whole process. Everything is too perfect to have just been without a creation.

"Intelligent design" can not be considered science because there is no observation that can prove it wrong. Everything in existance can be seen as proof of "intelligent design". Somone who beleives in "Intelligent design" can respond with "It was designed to be that way" to everything and anything.

If they do, they're morons 9/10.

Very true, but they still can do it. If there is no observation that can prove something wrong, then it can not be science.

If one were to say that creationism is a mere myth with no scientific evidence to back it up, and therefore should not be taught in school, then it should also be brought to light that evolution and the "big bang" is also a myth with no scientific evidence to support it either. All they have to go by is theories and conjecture. So, in that context, neither creationism or evolution should be taught. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

They can...and they do...

Mindia wrote:If one were to say that creationism is a mere myth with no scientific evidence to back it up, and therefore should not be taught in school, then it should also be brought to light that evolution and the "big bang" is also a myth with no scientific evidence to support it either. All they have to go by is theories and conjecture. So, in that context, neither creationism or evolution should be taught. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Things like evolution and the big bang theory are science not religion. If you can show proof that the world didn't start with the big bank or that evolution didn't happen, the theorys would be disproven. They are taught in science classes (very limitedly) because they are the best scientific explinations that we have.

Creation by "Intelligent Design" CAN NOT BE DISPROVEN. There for they are not a science. Nothing can prove them wrong because it can always be answered with, "it was designed that way"

Gidan, this is the same argument as before.

Evolution, the big bang, they are all convenient explanations for people who don't believe in God.

You might want to hedge up your sentances though, in one sentance you say

If you can show proof that the world didn't start with the big bang or that evolution didn't happen, the theory's would be disproven

In the next you say

CAN NOT BE DISPROVEN. Therefore they are not a science.

Sounds like you are saying the same thing twice.

In other words, one cannot be disproven therefore it IS science, the other can't be disproven so it isn't.

Which is it?

Evolution and the Big Bank are the current theorys but they can be disproven. They havn't been to this point and may never be disproven but if somonething shows they are not true they will be disproven.

it is not possible for something to show "inteligent design" as unture. If you can reponded to any and all questions with "It was inteneded to be that way" then nothing can prove it wrong. no matter what evidence you show it can still be answered with "It was intnded to be that way" If evolition and the big bang were all but proven to be true the "inteligent design" person can just say "In was designed that way".

If aliens came down from the sky, said they created life on earth and showed us how they did it, it would prove evolution didn't take place.

Tell me 1 thing that would prove "intelligent design" didn't take place. I dont care how outlandish or rediculas it is. Tell me something that would prove it to be wrong.


On a side not I do not thing Evolution or the big bang should be taught as fact in schools. I think they should be taught was the best scientific theorys that we have and be taught in a VERY limited bases if they are even taught. It was not taught in a single class I ever took before College, my brother who is graduating Highschool this year has also never been taught either.

What harm is there in discussing things in public school that many are interested in and would encourage actual learning, outside of the fact some hate and despise certain things, like Arlos does religion?

It's sad but many want what they like solely taught in school and could care less for the whole concept of 'education' and the search for truth.

There should be philosophical and religious discussions. It harms nobody and as long as there is no discrimination or favoritism, there should not be an issue. Religion is a real part of every day life, unlike the Biological sciences which are mostly guesswork and have no relevant impact on most people.

We allow freedom of worship. That does not mean the political 'separation' of church and state should suppress any and all discussions in schools that anti religious hateful bigots fear for some strange reason.

If Evolution is so bulletproof than what harm is there in comparing it to Creationism? Wouldn't this help more people have a better understanding of how good that Theory is and how poor Creationism is? If so, why would there be so much fear? Food for thought.