How many have you read of the top 10?

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:29 am

Zanchief wrote:
Mindia wrote:I'm still waiting for Rust to answer my question

Poor Mindia. Do you think people here take you seriously?

lol Why don't you ask yourself that same question.

Zanchief · Post by **Zanchief** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:30 am

Mindia wrote:
Zanchief wrote:
Mindia wrote:I'm still waiting for Rust to answer my question

Poor Mindia. Do you think people here take you seriously?

lol Why don't you ask yourself that same question.

I sure as hell hope people don't take me seriously. But atleast I'm funny...and good looking.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:32 am

Zanchief wrote:
Mindia wrote:
Zanchief wrote:
Mindia wrote:I'm still waiting for Rust to answer my question

Poor Mindia. Do you think people here take you seriously?

lol Why don't you ask yourself that same question.

I sure as hell hope people don't take me seriously. But atleast I'm funny...and good looking.

Uh... I've seen your pic, and I'd have to go ahead and ROFLCOPTER to that one there buddy. Sorry.

Post by **Ganzo** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:56 am

both of you :gtfo2:

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:00 pm

Ganzo wrote:both of you

Talk about funny-lookin... look who just walked in lol

/wave Ganzo

Eziekial · Post by **Eziekial** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:21 pm

The only thing on this world that can be "evil" is man. And since "government" is man's creation to exert control over fellow man; it is inherantly capable of being "evil".

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:36 pm

It's amazing how all you have to do is yell "COMMUNISM" into a room of right wing folks, and they go ape shit about how evil it is =P

Communism is just a political ideal

how people go about implementing it can be evil sure, but look at the shit people have done in the name of democracy, or monarchy, etc etc

seriously, just because you've been fed the propaganda since birth doesn't mean you have to keep swallowing it

Wrath Child · Post by **Wrath Child** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:49 pm

*With apologies to Tikker

It's amazing how all you have to do is yell "FACISM" into a room of left wing folks, and they go ape shit about how evil it is =P

Facism is just a political ideal

how people go about implementing it can be evil sure, but look at the shit people have done in the name of democracy, or monarchy, etc etc

seriously, just because you've been fed the propaganda since birth doesn't mean you have to keep swallowing it

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:52 pm

facism isn't evil

Shit, dig up any post where I've said that, and I'll buy you your very own little pony

Post by **Lyion** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:54 pm

Karl Marx was most definitely not an evil man, and had some brilliant ideas. I would not say The Manifesto was written as an evil book. It was simply an idea.

Unfortunately it was an idea with unforeseen consequences, and the which regimes spawned from his writings were responsible for amazing atrocities.

Ironically, nobody brought up the parallel to Christianity and the Bible, although I could point out SOME good has come from that, unlike the Manifesto which solely created poor governments which destroyed civil rights while trying to adhere to Marx's basic and overtly flawed principles and planks.

Wrath Child · Post by **Wrath Child** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:09 pm

Tikker wrote:facism isn't evil

Shit, dig up any post where I've said that, and I'll buy you your very own little pony

I hate ponies, so there's no way in hell I'm getting out my shovel!

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:14 pm

Lyion wrote:The cornerstones of communism as defined by the Manifesto are:

Abolition of Private Property.
Heavy Progressive Income Tax.
Abolition of Rights of Inheritance.
Confiscation of Property Rights.
Central Bank.
Government Ownership of Communication and Transportation.
Government Ownership of Factories and Agriculture.
Government Control of Labor.
Corporate Farms and Regional Planning.
Government Control of Education.

I still don't understand why you find these things "evil" lyion

It may not fit in with your idea of personal wealth, but they're far from evil

Wrath Child · Post by **Wrath Child** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:27 pm

So you believe the only "right" a person should have is the right to work as slaves? Only the whip crackers should be allowed to live the way they choose. Naw, no evil detected here.

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:31 pm

where have I said that?

You don't understand communism at all if you think that's how it works

Ideally, everyone is equal, no boss, no underling

everyone does the job they're best suited for and receives equal compensation for performing a task for the collective

in a communistic society, everyone is trying to contribute their best to making the society better

Post by **Lyion** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:56 pm

Tikker wrote:
Lyion wrote:The cornerstones of communism as defined by the Manifesto are:

Abolition of Private Property.
Heavy Progressive Income Tax.
Abolition of Rights of Inheritance.
Confiscation of Property Rights.
Central Bank.
Government Ownership of Communication and Transportation.
Government Ownership of Factories and Agriculture.
Government Control of Labor.
Corporate Farms and Regional Planning.
Government Control of Education.

I still don't understand why you find these things "evil" lyion

Because it is essentially destroying personal freedom and choice, for the good of all. This utter castigation of the spirit to me is evil.

Assume tomorrow Canada started transitioning to a communist state enroute to Marxism/communism

First, they'd take everyones possessions for the state(Commune). Including their home and everything they own. You would need to go to a camp to be told where to live in the future.

Then they'd take complete control of all communications and transportation for the state(Commune). They'd tell you who you could talk to when, where, and where you could go, only if the state said so.

All education would be centrally controlled and be what the state wanted it to be.

Everything that your family owned would now be part of the state.

Once in camp, they'd determine where you would live and what you would do. It would be their choice, not yours.

To me the complete abolition of everything private is indeed evil. Unfortunately that is the foundation of Communism, and it's pretty much the opposite of 'free'.

Marx envisioned revolution and the overthrow of the 'have's' for the good of all. As has been proven this method of thinking is flawed and the results are bad.

p.s. Fascism is evil.

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:20 pm

Marx envisioned overthrowing the greedy, for the good of all

which seems the opposite of evil

Post by **Lyion** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:40 pm

Marx envisioned the abolition of 'private property' to ensure equality and fairness, and to eliminate the 'owner' caste. While it may appear noble, the taking of property and the removal of 'freedoms' to me is an act of evil.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:14 pm

Tikker wrote:It's amazing how all you have to do is yell "COMMUNISM" into a room of right wing folks, and they go ape shit about how evil it is =P

Communism is just a political ideal

how people go about implementing it can be evil sure, but look at the shit people have done in the name of democracy, or monarchy, etc etc

seriously, just because you've been fed the propaganda since birth doesn't mean you have to keep swallowing it

Yeah, it's just a political ideal... too bad that "political ideal" always seems to fall into the hands of an evil dictator time after time. Coincidence?

mappatazee · Post by **mappatazee** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:14 pm

"Double negation" wasn't it? Not only do you have to get rid of ownership, you have to get rid of the concept of ownership. Which didn't happen.

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:49 pm

mappatazee wrote:"Double negation" wasn't it? Not only do you have to get rid of ownership, you have to get rid of the concept of ownership. Which didn't happen.

the reason that communism in Russia, Cuba, etc has failed is simply because for it to work, you have to eliminate the hierarchy

WHen you get into power, you have to be willing to give up that power

but since absolute power corrupts absolutely, you run into problems

no one is stating that communism (or imperialism, or capitalism etc) isn't flawed

It's just not inherently evil, no matter what your propoganda tells you

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:58 pm

Tikker wrote:Marx envisioned overthrowing the greedy, for the good of all

which seems the opposite of evil

Thats not the opposite of evil. You're thinking that it is alright to sacrifice a few people (though with communism, it's not a few) to serve the many, which is flawed ideology in and of itself. True good does not have victims.

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:00 pm

It's just not inherently evil, no matter what your propoganda tells you

Ok, this has been said so many times, but you people just aren't getting this. So I will put it in big bold letters.

COMMUNISM NECESSITATES STEALING ON A MASSIVE SCALE IN ORDER TO BE SET UP.

STEALING IS AN EVIL ACT

good day to you.

Zanchief · Post by **Zanchief** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:50 pm

It's not stealing if the governement is doing it. It's taxation.

Thon · Post by **Thon** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:43 am

if you are going to label communism as evil because of what the various 'communist' states have done, then you need to apply the same test to democratic countries.

the good ole USA finished off what was left of the natives of this continent, while stealing all the land it could from them. and slavery fueled its economy.

i'd say genocide and the enslavement of millions counts as evil, got Hitler that label, yes?

mappatazee · Post by **mappatazee** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:59 am

actually communism probably works fine in the case of a dozen or so hippies living on a commune