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Tuggan wrote:

Arlos wrote:I am not with Map on disrespecting people who died over there. Lots of them have absolutely no wish to be over there either. I mean, the army forced back officers who had been retired from the service for 10+ years and sent them over. They sent reservists and national guardsman, who never in a million years expected they would ever have to go fight in a war they may well not personally believe in.

Every single person in Iraq signed up to be there, I dont have any sympathy for any of them. Guess theyre just gonna have to work for that college aid, or tough it up because they were feeling patriotic one weekend.

Remember to tell that to the family of any police officer or firefighter who happens to be hurt or killed saving your dumb ass.

Oh, but now I'm playing the semantic card, right? If you were bright enough to actually write what you MEAN in the first place, there wouldn't be a problem. But that's asking a little too much of you. Keep drooling, and people will keep believing your a raging idiot.

Tuggan wrote:What in the fuck is so hard for you to understand?

You sign up for whatever reason, at whatever time. None of that is relevent to my point. The fact of the matter is, if you sign up... you should be fully aware that your country may have to call upon you. Thats something every single person that signs their name should understand. So yes, anyone who volunteers their services to the military gets no sympathy from me. Keep on talking in circles like youre proving some point against me Xao.

Ok, just wanted to clarify that you actually did believe that the deaths of service members were not a cause for concern since they volunteered for the job, and that your initial posts were simply poorly constructed. It always helps restore my faith in humanity whenever I'm reminded of how much your average American appreciates the sacrifices made by those who take up arms in defense of their country. "That others may live" indeed...

You have to believe in something...anything...for someone else's sacrifice to have any meaning to you.

Martrae wrote:You have to believe in something...anything...for someone else's sacrifice to have any meaning to you.

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xaoshaen wrote:It always helps restore my faith in humanity whenever I'm reminded of how much your average American appreciates the sacrifices made by those who take up arms in defense of their country. "That others may live" indeed...

That's were you got it wrong.

Zanchief wrote:

xaoshaen wrote:It always helps restore my faith in humanity whenever I'm reminded of how much your average American appreciates the sacrifices made by those who take up arms in defense of their country. "That others may live" indeed...

That's were you got it wrong.

Did you miss the rest of the discussion, Zan? Do you believe soldiers sign up for specific engagements? Perhaps hold a fantasy draft to see where and when they get to fight? "Oh shit, I got the last pick, looks like it's 'Nam for me!"

i think what zanchief meant is:

attacking iraq =/= defending america

brinstar wrote:i think what zanchief meant is:

attacking iraq =/= defending america

That's exactly what he meant, and the short-sightedness of that view is another discussion. Its irrelevance to this discussion has already been demonstrated.

brinstar wrote:i think what zanchief meant is:

attacking iraq =/= defending america

Merci

xaoshaen wrote:Ok, just wanted to clarify that you actually did believe that the deaths of service members were not a cause for concern since they volunteered for the job, and that your initial posts were simply poorly constructed. It always helps restore my faith in humanity whenever I'm reminded of how much your average American appreciates the sacrifices made by those who take up arms in defense of their country. "That others may live" indeed...

This is where I feel that I differ from a large majority of Americans. I have tremendous respect for veterans from World War II, and in my opinion that was the last war weve been involved in that was actually a threat to this country and its people. The "War on Terror" is crap, the war in Iraq is crap. Vietnam was crap. Korea was crap. Gulf War was crap. Just about every conflict weve been involved in since WW2 in MY OPINION is crap. Not a single one of em had to do with defending our freedoms, or defending this country.

With that said I even have respsect for people enlisted, and serving in Iraq right now. However to feel sympathy for someone who put themselves into the situation theyre in right now is silly in my eyes. People die in war, only people who fight wars in this country are the ones who sign up and agree to do so. Why should I feel sympathy for someone thats basically suicidal? Poor, uneducated, patriotic, gullible, college aid, experience for future careers...whatever the reasons are, I dont care. You volunteer your services in the military youre taking the chance of losing your life. Even the dumbest fuckers on the planet know this, I do...that should tell ya something. No sympathy for em

Zanchief wrote:

brinstar wrote:i think what zanchief meant is:

attacking iraq =/= defending america

Merci

de rien

Tuggan wrote:This is where I feel that I differ from a large majority of Americans. I have tremendous respect for veterans from World War II, and in my opinion that was the last war weve been involved in that was actually a threat to this country and its people. The "War on Terror" is crap, the war in Iraq is crap. Vietnam was crap. Korea was crap. Gulf War was crap. Just about every conflict weve been involved in since WW2 in MY OPINION is crap. Not a single one of em had to do with defending our freedoms, or defending this country.

Germany never attacked the U.S.: was the European theater during World War Two "crap" too?

With that said I even have respsect for people enlisted, and serving in Iraq right now. However to feel sympathy for someone who put themselves into the situation theyre in right now is silly in my eyes. People die in war, only people who fight wars in this country are the ones who sign up and agree to do so. Why should I feel sympathy for someone thats basically suicidal? Poor, uneducated, patriotic, gullible, college aid, experience for future careers...whatever the reasons are, I dont care. You volunteer your services in the military youre taking the chance of losing your life. Even the dumbest fuckers on the planet know this, I do...that should tell ya something. No sympathy for em

Suicidal? Do you have any idea what the survival rate is for a marine in front line combat? It's good to see your grasp of statistics and psychology are right up there with your comprehension of political and military history. As far as taking professional risks, I trust you have no sympathy for firefighters or police officers who die in the line of duty.

Oh, Europe and Germany were the only ones involved in World War 2 huh? Yeah, My history totally sucks. I thought WW2 was a lil more involved than just Hitler.

And yes, suicidal. I dont give a fuck if you agree with me. You sign up knowing damn well theres a chance youre going to take a bullet for a pretty much pointless cause, thats crazy thinking. No tears comin outta my eyes when that happens.

As far as police go, I couldnt care less how many of them take a bullet. Just like the gungho morons in the Marines. Firemen have an admirable duty and deserve the respect theyre given.

Tuggan wrote:Oh, Europe and Germany were the only ones involved in World War 2 huh? Yeah, My history totally sucks. I thought WW2 was a lil more involved than just Hitler.

No your history doesn't totally suck, but apparently your geography does, next time you look at a map of Europe, please note that Germany is in Europe.

xaoshaen wrote:Germany never attacked the U.S.: was the European theater during World War Two "crap" too?

Now that you are aware that Germany is located in Europe maybe you can understand the question, and give an intelligent answer.

Tuggan wrote:And yes, suicidal. I dont give a fuck if you agree with me. You sign up knowing damn well theres a chance youre going to take a bullet for a pretty much pointless cause, thats crazy thinking. No tears comin outta my eyes when that happens.

As far as police go, I couldnt care less how many of them take a bullet. Just like the gungho morons in the Marines. Firemen have an admirable duty and deserve the respect theyre given.

By your logic I can not fathom how you see Firemen deserving any respect, after all they knew what they were getting into when they signed up.

Edit: I just realized reading the post below that you were making a distinction between sympathy and respect. Frankly I have trouble seeing the separation of the two, since I see them pretty much inseperable. What if the situation hit closer to home... like right in your face? Say for instance if a police officer took a bullet trying to save you from a hostage situation... would you feel any sympathy for the officer?

Tuggan wrote:Oh, Europe and Germany were the only ones involved in World War 2 huh? Yeah, My history totally sucks. I thought WW2 was a lil more involved than just Hitler.

Which would be why I specified the European theater, where the US engaged nations that had not launched an attack against America. Care to answer the question now?

And yes, suicidal. I dont give a fuck if you agree with me. You sign up knowing damn well theres a chance youre going to take a bullet for a pretty much pointless cause, thats crazy thinking. No tears comin outta my eyes when that happens.

So, basically you have no idea what the survival rates are for a U.S. Marine in combat. Hey, you get in a car, you know there's a chance you'll get creamed by a drunk driver. No tears coming out of your eyes for the couple that got turned into roadkill by a drunk? Hey, they knew it could happen and chose to drive anyways.

As far as police go, I couldnt care less how many of them take a bullet. Just like the gungho morons in the Marines. Firemen have an admirable duty and deserve the respect theyre given.

You've already distinguished between sympathy and respect. Do you, or do you not sympathise with firefighters who knowingly risk their lives as an intrinsic part of their profession?

One minor fact you're forgetting Xaoshaen, Germany and Italy BOTH declared war on the US before we declared war on them. If you look back at the history, there was actually some serious concern on FDRs part about whether or not he'd be able to convine the country to go to war with Germany/Italy as well as Japan, given that only Japan had attacked us, and the power of the pro-German lobby in the US at the time. The problem was neatly solved when they declared war first.

I've read some stuff by military historians (WWII history is something of a hobby of mine) that have said that the declaration of war against the US was Hitler's biggest blunder of the entire war, even bigger than invading Russia, because it put all the US's industrial might at the disposal of the UK and the USSR. No war with Germany, we might well have devoted all our efforts to Japan, and left the UK and the USSR to their own devices, apart from smaller programs like lend-lease.

-Arlos

The stupidity in this thread has made up for the few days I didn't come here.

I am in awe...

(except for Mapp...I expected that level of stupidity from him)

Arlos wrote:One minor fact you're forgetting Xaoshaen, Germany and Italy BOTH declared war on the US before we declared war on them. If you look back at the history, there was actually some serious concern on FDRs part about whether or not he'd be able to convine the country to go to war with Germany/Italy as well as Japan, given that only Japan had attacked us, and the power of the pro-German lobby in the US at the time. The problem was neatly solved when they declared war first.

And Iraq broke the terms of the cease fire from the Gulf War and repeatedly attacked US servicemembers in the region, which carries a bit more weight than a diplomatic message. It's funny you should mention FDR's concerns with garnering popular support for the war. Some of his machinations to involve the US against popular opinion make the whole WMD controversy look positively benign.

I've read some stuff by military historians (WWII history is something of a hobby of mine) that have said that the declaration of war against the US was Hitler's biggest blunder of the entire war, even bigger than invading Russia, because it put all the US's industrial might at the disposal of the UK and the USSR. No war with Germany, we might well have devoted all our efforts to Japan, and left the UK and the USSR to their own devices, apart from smaller programs like lend-lease.
-Arlos

Those historians tend to ignore the political pressures involved at the time though. Keegan makes an excellent point when he reminds us that the US was not capable of acting unilaterally during the initial stages of American involvement. In order to garner the U.K. support we needed to get our war effort in the Pacific underway, we were essentially obliged to at least put in a token appearance in Europe, necessitating a declaration of wear at some point.

Harrison wrote:The stupidity in this thread has made up for the few days I didn't come here.

I am in awe...

(except for Mapp...I expected that level of stupidity from him)

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Harrison wrote:The stupidity in this thread has made up for the few days I didn't come here.

I am in awe...

(except for Mapp...I expected that level of stupidity from him)

We were trying to keep up while you were gone.

Harrison has an excuse, what's yours?

Ganzo wrote:Harrison has an excuse, what's yours?

I'm a little slow cause I'm a Russian immigrant, thus invalidating any argument about my grammar or lack of general knowledge.

You?

xaoshaen wrote:It's funny you should mention FDR's concerns with garnering popular support for the war. Some of his machinations to involve the US against popular opinion make the whole WMD controversy look positively benign.

You can say that again. The amount of "aid" we sent to England was impossible to ignore. Germany's declaration of war was the icing on the cake as FDR had us knee deep long before then.

Harrison wrote:The stupidity in this thread has made up for the few days I didn't come here.

I am in awe...

(except for Mapp...I expected that level of stupidity from him)

how come the only posts you ever make in these forums are about how stupid everyone else's opinions are? you never present any original thoughts. if you're going to trash other people's ideas, at least have the chutzpah to formulate your own.

You fucking morons don't read my posts until it's something you can flame.

I gave up posting "serious debate" here long ago. You tools can't get past political orientation of the poster or content of the post, nevermind actual debate.

I am sick of the propoganda from both sides on this forum. Fucking sheep can't bleat without spouting off some bullshit about "blah blah blah that article was written by joe schmoe the republican or democrat, "

The SECOND something goes against a modicum of your view...you stop paying attention and froth at the mouth waiting to call "bullshit" whether or not you know anything about it or not.