NBA TALK - 2005/2006

[Malluas]

duncan might have put his team on his back.. but would you want the ball in his hands with the last shot or Van Exel? Duncan Garrnet Shaq and Webber (before the trade had started to hit alot of game winners) are guys i would never want the ball in their hands with the last shot. to come thru with 25 and 15 in a game to help lead the team they are the best at that. clutch game winning shots.. they are not.

i would go with nick. Finley last couple seasons isn't clutch.. i mean peja has stopped him 2 times last couple of years at the end of the game.. that shouldn't happen.

[xaoshaen]

Duncan did choke in a few games last year though Xao.

Only if you read the sportswriters who didn't look at the big picture. Sure, Duncan missed some freethrows and a putback in the playoffs. He did this after being the focus of the opposing defense and almost the entirety of the Spurs' offense for forty minutes while playing on two bad ankles. The fact that he was still on the floor, let alone getting the ball, should be testament to his grit and willpower: the two factors that contribute to a player being 'clutch'.

[xaoshaen]

duncan might have put his team on his back.. but would you want the ball in his hands with the last shot or Van Exel? Duncan Garrnet Shaq and Webber (before the trade had started to hit alot of game winners) are guys i would never want the ball in their hands with the last shot. to come thru with 25 and 15 in a game to help lead the team they are the best at that. clutch game winning shots.. they are not.

i would go with nick. Finley last couple seasons isn't clutch.. i mean peja has stopped him 2 times last couple of years at the end of the game.. that shouldn't happen.

I'll take Duncan. Every. Single. Time. Look at what he's done historically (game four against the Lakers in '04 comes to mind). The only reason he's taken heat for his performance at the end of a game is because he was playing injured and exhausted (from carrying an entire team on his back for forty minutes) ... and he still managed to get a look at the basket.

[Zanchief]

I watched all his games in the playoffs last year, Xao. Defend him all you want, Horry saved him in more than one game. I don't spend much time reading basketball sportswriters though, can you say the same?

http://www.namelesstavern.org/phpBB2/vi ... php?t=9891

[xaoshaen]

I watched all his games in the playoffs last year, Xao. Defend him all you want, Horry saved him in more than one game. I don't spend much time reading basketball sportswriters though, can you say the same?

http://www.namelesstavern.org/phpBB2/vi ... php?t=9891

I watched all the Spurs games as well, and Horry definitely stepped up for the Spurs on two occasions. How many times did Duncan do the same? At least four come to mind... I do read quite a few basketball sportswriters as I prefer to have access to a wide range of opinions. It's odd that you chose to link a post where I'm not actually quoting a sportswriter's opinion though.

[Zanchief]

Well your original implication was that I got my information from poor writers, like you did from the link provided.

I watched the games, and love Duncan as a player. But, although he hasn't in the past, he did choke twice last year in the playoffs. His injuries shouldn't have affected his free-throw shooting. The pressure did.

[xaoshaen]

Well your original implication was that I got my information from poor writers, like you did from the link provided.

I watched the games, and love Duncan as a player. But, although he hasn't in the past, he did choke twice last year in the playoffs. His injuries shouldn't have affected his free-throw shooting. The pressure did.

Bad ankles most certaintly affect your shot, as does exhaustion. Duncan's never been one to cave to pressure before, so I'd be much more inclined to blame both instances on physical conditions rather than mental.

Heh, I wasn't quoting a poor writer... I was quoting a poor GM.

[Zanchief]

Xao, one night he shoots 100% the next 20%. That's not bad ankles, thats all in his head.

Doesn't matter who we would have as GM here in Toronto. The hacks would just make him into the devil, just as easily. Sad, I thought you were an objective thinking.

[Malluas]

sigh xoa go count up all his GAME WINNING shots/blocks/steals.. then come back to me

[Malluas]

oh and i forgot his 70+% FT shooting first couple years down to almost under 50 and now around 60 at best

at least KG comes up with a big defensive stop or a shot ONCE in a while.. webber had 9 game winners a couple years back.

and his injuries have nothing to do with shit. He was better earlier in his career with being consistant and someone you could count on at the end of a game now.. he is what everyone thinks webber is

[xaoshaen]

oh and i forgot his 70+% FT shooting first couple years down to almost under 50 and now around 60 at best

at least KG comes up with a big defensive stop or a shot ONCE in a while.. webber had 9 game winners a couple years back.

and his injuries have nothing to do with shit. He was better earlier in his career with being consistant and someone you could count on at the end of a game now.. he is what everyone thinks webber is

Ok, you're just completely clueless when it comes to Duncan, Malluas. You do realize that he's shot almost 70% from the line for his career, right? That he shot 67% last year, that he's had one year where he shot less than 60% from the line (59.9% in '03-'04). Seriously, at least bother to look up the commonly available stats instead of making shit up.

Playing on two bad ankles, while providing the heart of your team's offense and defense for almost an entire game certaintly does have something to do with how you finish a game. I can only assume you've never shot a basketball: your foundation absolutely affects the consistency of a shooting stroke. As far as game-winners, well, off the top of my head, Duncan won four games in the playoffs alone last year.

[xaoshaen]

Xao, one night he shoots 100% the next 20%. That's not bad ankles, thats all in his head.

I'd expect a bit more insight from you on this Zan. You should certaintly be aware that having one, let alone two, bad legs is certaintly going to reduce the consistency and alter the form of a shot. One of the most marked effects of a foundation injury is to add a much larger standard deviation to the result set of a given shot. Wildly variable shooting percentages between nights is exactly what you'd expect as the result of an injured ankle.

Doesn't matter who we would have as GM here in Toronto. The hacks would just make him into the devil, just as easily. Sad, I thought you were an objective thinking.

The hacks had nothing to do with that particular piece. It was just Rob Babcock coming out and saying 'the moves I made have reduced our chances of winning'.

[Zanchief]

oh and i forgot his 70+% FT shooting first couple years down to almost under 50 and now around 60 at best

at least KG comes up with a big defensive stop or a shot ONCE in a while.. webber had 9 game winners a couple years back.

and his injuries have nothing to do with shit. He was better earlier in his career with being consistant and someone you could count on at the end of a game now.. he is what everyone thinks webber is

Ok, you're just completely clueless when it comes to Duncan, Malluas. You do realize that he's shot almost 70% from the line for his career, right? That he shot 66% last year, that he's had one year where he shot less than 60% from the line (59.9% in '03-'04). Seriously, at least bother to look up the commonly available stats instead of making shit up.

Playing on two bad ankles, while providing the heart of your team's offense and defense for almost an entire game certaintly does have something to do with how you finish a game. I can only assume you've never shot a basketball: your foundation absolutely affects the consistency of a shooting stroke. As far as game-winners, well, off the top of my head, Duncan won four games in the playoffs alone last year.

That's why he's a headcase, Xao. Cause he can single-handedly win a game one night, then choke in the final minutes the next. Why are you giving him so many excuses? A lot of players have a lot of injuries and still make free throws in the dying seconds of games. Fatigue could affect one or two free throws, but 5 or 6? I can't recall how many he missed but you are giving him way too much slack if you attribute that performance to fatigue.

And yes I have shot a basketball in my lifetime, Xao. I’d wager more than you have, if you want to get petty.

[Zanchief]

The hacks had nothing to do with that particular piece. It was just Rob Babcock coming out and saying 'the moves I made have reduced our chances of winning'.

HAHAHAH is that the exact quote?

Way to read the full story. Maybe had you actually listened to the interview. Or heard the context of the quote, which wasn't near what you said.

I'll take an honest GM who tells his fans the truth. You can have a weasel who lies.

[xaoshaen]

That's why he's a headcase, Xao. Cause he can single-handedly win a game one night, then choke in the final minutes the next. Why are you giving him so many excuses? A lot of players have a lot of injuries and still make free throws in the dying seconds of games. Fatigue could affect one or two free throws, but 5 or 6? I can't recall how many he missed but you are giving him way too much slack if you attribute that performance to fatigue.

Seriously, did you read the reply to you? A high standard deviation in the result set of a given shot, such as a free throw, is precisely the predicted result from a foundation injury. Duncan also missed a putback that he never misses when he's healthy. It was pretty clear that his legs were done at that point in the game, but Pop couldn't pull him because even dead tired, he was the only one producing until Horry went ballistic.

And yes I have shot a basketball in my lifetime, Xao. I’d wager more than you have, if you want to get petty.

The latter claim is doubtful, but either way, that's why I said I expected better from you.

[xaoshaen]

The hacks had nothing to do with that particular piece. It was just Rob Babcock coming out and saying 'the moves I made have reduced our chances of winning'.

HAHAHAH is that the exact quote?

Nope, which is why I paraphrased it instead of, you know, quoting it.

Way to read the full story. Maybe had you actually listened to the interview. Or heard the context of the quote, which wasn't near what you said.

I'll take an honest GM who tells his fans the truth. You can have a weasel who lies.

Read the full story, in context. Babcock came right out and admitted that he had weakened the Raptors. I'm glad you'll settle for honesty in a GM. Me, I'd prefer someone who'll work to strengthen the team, but to each his own. I don't necessarily disagree with his overall strategy, but publicly writing off a season isn't the best way to convince people, including potential employees, you're going to put together a winning team in the future.

[Zanchief]

Seriously, did you read the reply to you?

No, you posted it as I was writing.

Seriously, did you read the reply to you? A high standard deviation in the result set of a given shot, such as a free throw, is precisely the predicted result from a foundation injury. Duncan also missed a putback that he never misses when he's healthy. It was pretty clear that his legs were done at that point in the game, but Pop couldn't pull him because even dead tired, he was the only one producing until Horry went ballistic.

And yes I have shot a basketball in my lifetime, Xao. I’d wager more than you have, if you want to get petty.

Every year we see NBA stories of players who persevere through injuries to lead their teams to victory. He did not.

Was Duncan hurt? Yes

Was his injury so severe as to completely negate all his talent and send him into Chris Dudley territory? No

It was clear from watching his body language that something was going on mentally that was affecting his shooting. It wasn't just physical.

[Zanchief]

The hacks had nothing to do with that particular piece. It was just Rob Babcock coming out and saying 'the moves I made have reduced our chances of winning'.

HAHAHAH is that the exact quote?

Nope, which is why I paraphrased it instead of, you know, quoting it.

Way to read the full story. Maybe had you actually listened to the interview. Or heard the context of the quote, which wasn't near what you said.

I'll take an honest GM who tells his fans the truth. You can have a weasel who lies.

Read the full story, in context. Babcock came right out and admitted that he had weakened the Raptors. I'm glad you'll settle for honesty in a GM. Me, I'd prefer someone who'll work to strengthen the team, but to each his own. I don't necessarily disagree with his overall strategy, but publicly writing off a season isn't the best way to convince people, including potential employees, you're going to put together a winning team in the future.

'There will be growing pains, no doubt about it. Whether we win or lose more games than last year, I think if you look at us on paper, we probably will not win as many games as last year. We more or less have the same team back with the exception of Donyell Marshall, who was an integral part of our team last year. We're replacing him with rookies.

That’s the quote. He said it to take heat off the coach who will have to coach a team with 2 rookies who will be getting a lot of playing time, and most of the contributors are still in their rookie contract.

Everyone in the league knew they were gonna win less games this year. He didn't say, "My moves were bad for the team". He didn't say "This team has no future". He actually said the complete opposite and said they were likely going to be a perennial playoff team for years to come. It was encouraging. It was refreshing. And the harpies in the American media just tore it to pieces.

[Jirig]

It wasn't just physical.

His wife had a kid during the playoffs, I think.

Two bad ankles, having to keep up morale, all while your wife is in labor can be pretty stressful, I'd imagine.

But I honestly don't think the loss of Duncan would be as substantial as people make it out to be. Pop hardly played him during the regular season and we did just fine. Sure, playoffs are different because the pressure's on... and I won't say we'd win without Duncan... but that doesn't change the fact that we'd lose without Manu or Parker or Horry or... dare I say Van Exel and/or Finley? Only time can tell such things. Theorizing is all fun and good and stuff... but theories are just that until the '06 season comes around. :p

[vonkaar]

Is anyone else really bored with this off-season? Last year was awesome... the whole league was shaken up. I'm sort of waiting to see Marbury traded to Toronto for Jalen Rose and Toronto's next 18 picks... KG traded to Detroit for the Bens... Dirk traded to the Vatican for Cuban's guaranteed indulgence and T-mac traded to THE BOTTOM OF A CLIFF WHERE HE EXPLODES UPON IMPACT.

[Malluas]

xao i played summer league for a CA state ranked HS team. So i have played.

i am sorry but there are plenty of other superstars that have hurt stuff that make game winners dont disappear half the time in big games in the 4th or shoot shitty freethrows. Kobe was hitting game winners with a fucked up shoulder, Webber hit game winners with one fuckin leg, iverson hit game winners with all his injuries .. and these guys don't disappear in 4th quarters like Duncan does.

over a career shooting percentages doesn't matter, its what he is doing now. 70 even 75 for him is shitty. and he has shot less than 70 for a few years now.. they show the graphics all the time in games withthe spurs.

Duncan isn't even in the top 5 centers of all time not even close. For someone with that shooting touch and so called heart.. you think he could make some game winners and gut out a decent FT percentage.

[vonkaar]

Duncan is a 4 =p
And I think that a LOT of people would rank him in the top 5... of all time. I would.

Hmm... for true power forwards... I'd list it...

Karl Malone
Tim Duncan
Kevin McHale
Dennis Rodman
DIRK - That's right, fuck you haters.

Hell, here you go...
I google'd "Greatest Power Forward"
Charley Rosen lists:
#1 Tim Duncan
#2 through #10. 'not' Tim Duncan.

[xaoshaen]

xao i played summer league for a CA state ranked HS team. So i have played.

Then you should really know better.

i am sorry but there are plenty of other superstars that have hurt stuff that make game winners dont disappear half the time in big games in the 4th or shoot shitty freethrows. Kobe was hitting game winners with a fucked up shoulder, Webber hit game winners with one fuckin leg, iverson hit game winners with all his injuries .. and these guys don't disappear in 4th quarters like Duncan does.

Care to offer some proof that Duncan disappears in the fourth quarter? So far, all you've done is present the classic begs-the-question fallacy.

over a career shooting percentages doesn't matter, its what he is doing now. 70 even 75 for him is shitty. and he has shot less than 70 for a few years now.. they show the graphics all the time in games withthe spurs.

I never claimed he wasn't below 70% on occasion. I refuted your argument that he shot less than 50% from the line at any point in his career, and that he's about a 60% free throw shooter "at best".

Duncan's free throw percentages by year:
97-98: .662
98-99: .690
99-00: .761
00-01: .618
01-02: .799
02-03: .710
03-04: .599
04-05: .670

Hey, look, the stats back me up! He's only shot less than 60% from the line once, and that was a 59.9% clip. His career average is better than 69%. He's not a good free throw shooter, but he's not as horrific as you made him out to be.

Duncan isn't even in the top 5 centers of all time not even close. For someone with that shooting touch and so called heart.. you think he could make some game winners and gut out a decent FT percentage.

Duncan's isn't in the top five point guards of all time either. Know why? 'Cause he doesn't play point guard, much like he doesn't play center. He is, however, generally acknowledged as the single greatest power forward. Ever.

I've already pointed out several examples of Duncan winning games. You have one. One example of him coming up short in clutch time. Are his numbers higher in the playoffs or during the regular season? Here are a few examples of Duncan stepping up in the clutch for the Spurs.

[vonkaar]

Surprised you didn't use the final game in the 2003 Nets/Spurs finals...
he was like... 2 blocks away from a quadruple-double...
may people call that the single most dominant effort in final's history...
something like...

25 points
12 rebounds
12 assists
8 blocks

To top it off, he played 10 of the final 12 minutes - clutch time.

[Malluas]

lets see.. the year the kings and lakers played in the Western Conference finals.. duncan in the 2 games i watched when the spurs were UP and honestly should have swept the lakers.. he had this in those 2 games

game 1: 2 points 0-8 in fourth 3 rebs Loss after being up by something like 14 late in 4th

game 2: 4 points 2-8 1 reb Loss after being up by 10 late in 4th

he was averaging like 4 points in the fourth.

he shot 50% during alot of the beginning of seasons. a couple years ago he was horrible for his shooting touch.

and thanks for the stats.. he is a shitty FT shooter for the kinda shot he has like Bruce Bowen

he still does that alot in games. He aint no Paul Pierce

thats the big time he failed. he has gotten somewhat better but i still wouldn't count on him at the end of a game.