ESPN ranks 10 best point guards of all time

Post by **Arlos** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:04 pm

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime ... ointGuards

As a quick recap of their list:

#1 Magic Johnson
#2 Oscar Robertson
#3 Isiah Thomas
#4 John Stockton
#5 Bob Cousey
#6 Walt Frazier
#7 Jason Kidd
#8 Tiny Archibald
#9 Steve Nash
#10 Gary Payton

Comments, resident basketball nuts?

-Arlos

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:32 pm

I have no beef with that list.

I was listening to the Dan Patrick show a couple days ago... He had Charles Barkley on and they were talking about Nash. Dan asked Charles a question that he had asked someone else that week, "when it's all said and done... who will have had a better career: Steve Nash or Jason Kidd?" Charles answered immediately, in a 'are you stupid?' voice, "Jason Kidd!" They talked a bit about it... it all made sense... I totally agreed... and... then, Dan asked... "would you put Steve in the 'top ten of all time' list? Charles stopped for a second... and said, "well, I'd have to see the list... I can't think that wide ranged on the spot. Obviously Magic is #1 and Oscar is #2... but past that... You need to make me a list so I can disagree or agree." One day later, ESPN.com has this article up. I thought that was kind of cool.

Also... and this isn't a knock at all on Steve, because I totally love him... but... his MVPs are the only reason he's above The Glove. As far as career accomplishments, Gary Payton should probably be ranked at #9 over Steve. Steve Nash really only has 2 'amazing' years to his credit, and that's NOT enough to put someone in such illustrious company, IMO.

If I knew bball history well enough, I'd think about the 3 or 4 people who are being left off the list... and... maybe Steve and Gary don't deserve to be on it over them... but everyone else definitely does.

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:39 pm

Additionally... John Hollinger, one of the smartest basketball analysts/writers around... ranked Gary Payton at #4.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:40 pm

Wasn't Michael Jordan a point guard? Where's he on the list?

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:44 pm

He was a shooting guard.

Zanchief · Post by **Zanchief** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:48 pm

Pure point guards.

I think that Nash is better than kidd, but hey, I'm weird.

Post by **Arlos** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:52 pm

So you have no major beef with the list either, Zan?

-Arlos

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Thu May 11, 2006 4:13 pm

Better... that could be argued...

"Accomplished more?"

I'd like to see your points on that.

Post by **Lyion** » Thu May 11, 2006 4:31 pm

I have a beef with the ordering of the list, but I'm enough to remember Cous and Frasier. The list is 'best'. Not most accomplished.

I think Nash should be ranked higher than Kidd.

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:06 pm

I disagree.

Nash has 2 amazing years. He completely elevated his game when he left Dallas. When he was with Dallas (meaning, I was his biggest fan), I listed him as the #2 or 3 guard in the league... always with Jason Kidd as the #1. Two great years doesn't change all of that.

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:11 pm

Nate Archibald shoots alot more than he passes. More like Iverson or Arenas.

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:18 pm

I would put Tim Hardaway in his Warriors days at number 7 on that list above Kidd, Archibald, Nash, and Payton.

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:22 pm

Zanchief wrote:Pure point guards.

I think that Nash is better than kidd, but hey, I'm weird.

If you are picking pure point guards, then John Stockton would be #1 on that list.

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:30 pm

Where is Maurice Cheeks on this list?

Post by **Lyion** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:34 pm

Not a chance. Go watch Cousy play in his heyday. A lot of what you see in the NBA is derivative of his playstyle.

Zanchief · Post by **Zanchief** » Fri May 12, 2006 6:19 am

Phlegm wrote:
Zanchief wrote:Pure point guards.

I think that Nash is better than kidd, but hey, I'm weird.

If you are picking pure point guards, then John Stockton would be #1 on that list.

Magic and Oscar are number 1 and 2 without question.

As for Kidd, has he really accomplished that much more? He's been to the finals twice and has STILL not won a championship. Between the two I think it's pretty subjective, but it took Nash longer to get to where he is than Kidd did, so he's had more slow season. I don't disagree with the article aside from that, and even I realise it's pretty subjective to put Nash above Kidd. Most experts would disagree with me there.

Snero · Post by **Snero** » Fri May 12, 2006 8:40 am

I would put Tim Hardaway in his Warriors days at number 7 on that list above Kidd, Archibald, Nash, and Payton.

woa there, hardaway was good, had a great cross over and a pretty good shot but he's not all time best good. Chauncy billups and scottie pippen getting votes makes me a sad panda, plus whats wrong with this line

Oscar 9 9 9 8 10 9 9 -- 9 10 9 9 9 109

Xaiveir · Post by **Xaiveir** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:18 am

Payton was a pimp Point Gaurd. I would put him above Nash all time. Not the Nash right now, but career wise GP was a badass. Hardaway on the list? Yeah no. He was good, but sustained greatness he was not.

I pretty much agree with the list as is. I cant think of any point gaurd left out that just screams "i should be in there". J kidd i may even rank higher. Yeah he hasnt won any titles or MVPs but he hasnt had the talent around him either like some of the other PGs did. From the start of his career kidd was a walking triple double. Only Oscar and magic can you also say that about.

I think Stockton should be ranked down a bit, Great yeah but 4th all time? I dont know about that.

Spliffs · Post by **Spliffs** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:39 pm

I think it's sad there's no love for Iverson. Sure maybe he's more of a scorer than a passer, but the article doesn't say the best passing point guard.

I think Iverson is better over all than Payton and Nash.

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:50 pm

Iverson was only a point guard the past 2 years. He has ALWAYS been a shooting guard.

And... he'd probably make the list for top 10 shooting guards.

It'd be like, Jordon was a shooting guard for his entire amazing career... if he swapped and played point-guard for 2 years, should he be considered for the 'top 10 point guard' discussion? Nah. Iverson is in the same boat. He has had an amazing career as a 2 guard. He had a couple coaches who tried to play him as a 1 guard and I doubt anyone will try that again. He'll be a SG again next year and probably remain so til he retires.

And... he belongs in the top ten SG list... totally.

Lionking · Post by **Lionking** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:57 pm

I am a Piston's fan and I am saying... :wtf:

is Isiah Thomas doing up at #3? Is he riding Magic's... coattails? Isiah is WAY overrated. I don't even think he's top 10. Get him off the board, boys!

Spliffs · Post by **Spliffs** » Fri May 12, 2006 5:11 pm

My mistake - i thought Iverson played his entire career as a PG

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Fri May 12, 2006 8:00 pm

You'd be right if he was though... Iverson would be higher than LOT of those guys... in my book anyway... he's dreamy.

And actually... this whole topic made me think...

making me go al John Hollinger on ya'll...

thanks to the amazing Databasebasketball.com , I'm able to find out crazy stats like these... I'm going to try and rank the greatest (by stats alone) guards of all time... and this includes players who are JUST in the game, so Lebron might even make this list... which is scary. But, if his numbers are that good - as a freaking rookie through 3rd year, then... hell... let's keep him in the list, k?

I'm going to put the 'points' that each person gets on thest stats at the end of their names... tally those totals up at the end and rank them by the stats. I'm typing this up as I go along, so.. I could be totally surprised at the very end. MJ might 'not' make the #1 spot at the end. WE SHALL SEE!

1947 to present:
Top ten points per game average
01) Michael Jordon 30.1 - (10)
02) Allen Iverson 28.0 - (9)
03) Jerry West 27.0 - (8)
04) Lebron James 26.5 (7)
05) George Gervin 26.2 (6)
06) Oscar Robertson 25.7 (5)
07) Pete Maravich 24.2 (4)
08) Vince Carter 23.9 (3)
08) Kobe Bryant 23.9 (3)
10) Paul Pierce 23.5 (1)

1947 - present. Points per 48 minutes (minimum of 300 games played)

01) Michael Jordon 37.8 (10)
02) Geroge Gervin 37.5 (9)
03) Freeman Williams 34.4 (8) who the hell is this guy? He's not hall-of-fame... yet 34.4 per-48? :bowdown:

04) David Thompson 33.2 (7)
05) Jerry West 33.1 (6)
06) Walter Davis 32.5 (5)
07) Allen Iverson 32.3 (4)
08) Kobe Bryant 32.1 (3)
09) World Free 32.0 (2) Again... wtf?
10) Pete Maravich 31.5 (1)

1947 - Present - Rebounds per game

01) Tom Gola 8.0 - (10) :eyecrazy:

holy shit... dude was only 6'6 too
02) Oscar Robertson 7.5 (9)
03) Jerry Sloan 7.4 (8)
04) Magic Johnson 7.2 (7)
05) Lebron James 6.6 (6)
06) Paul Pierce 6.5 (5)
07) Jason Kidd 6.5 (5)
08) Michael Jordon 6.2 (3)
09) Clyde Drexler 6.1 (2)
10) Lafayette Lever 6.0 (1) fag name

1947 - Present - Assists per game

01) Magic Johnson 11.2 (10)
02) John Stockton 10.5 (9)
03) Oscar Robertson 9.5 (8)
04) Isaiah Thomas 9.3 (7)
05) Jason Kidd 9.2 (6)
06) Kevin Johnson 9.1 (5)
07) Norm Nixon 8.3 (4)
08) Tim Hardaway 8.2 (3)
09) Stephon Marbury 8.1 (2) wow, he showed up on this post!
10) Kevin Porter 8.0 (1)

1947 - Present - Steals per game

01) Alvin Robertson 2.7 (10)
02) Michaelray Richardson 2.6 (9)
03) Michael Jordon 2.3 (8)
04) Allen Iversno 2.3 (7)
05) Mookie Blaylock 2.3 (7)
06) Lafayette Lever 2.3 (7)
07) Slick Watts 2.2 (4)
08) John Stockton 2.2 (4)
09) Maurice Cheeks 2.1 (2)
10) Jason Kidd 2.0 (1)

1947 - Present - blocks per game

01) Vince Carter 0.9 (10)
02) Reggie Lewis 0.9 (10)
03) George Gervin 0.8 (8)
04) Michael Jordon 0.8 (8)
05) Dwayne Wade 0.8 (8)
06) David Thompson 0.8 (8)
07) Paul Pierce 0.8 (8)
08) Lebron james 0.7 (3)
09) Ron Harper 0.7 (3)
10) Tayshaun Prince 0.7 (3)

1947 - Present - Field Goals Made

01) Michael Jordon 12192 (10)
02) Oscar Robertson 9508 (9)
03) Jerry West 9016 (8)
04) Gary Payton 8564 (7)
05) Hal Greer 8504 (6)
06) Clyde Drexler 8335 (5)
07) Reggie Miller 8241 (4)
08) Walter Davis 8118 (3)
09) George Gervin 8048 (2)
10) Gail Goodrich 7431 (1)

1947 - Present - 3 Point Field Goals Made

01) Reggie Miller 2560 (10)
02) Ray Allen 1755 (9)
03) Dale Ellis 1719 (8)
04) Tim Hardaway 1542 (7)
05) Nick Van Excel 1528 (6)
06) Eddie Jones 1434 (5)
07) Dan Majerle 1360 (4)
08) Mitch Richmond 1326 (3)
09) Allan Houston 1305 (2)
10) Terry Porter 1297 (1)

Totals:

1) Michael Jordon - 41
2) Oscar Robertson - 31
3) George Gervin - 27
4) Jerry West - 22
5) Allen Iverson - 20
6) Magic Johnson - 17
7) Lebron James - 16
8) Reggie Miller - 14
9) John Stockton - 13
9) Vince Carter - 13

Craziness

Rotj · Post by **Rotj** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:46 pm

nice list there.. damn lebron is sick

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:48 pm

If they had the three point line when Pistol Pete was playing, he was would be on your final top ten list.