Do you think there is an absolute morality - one moral code that is ALWAYS the correct way to act, or are ethics and morals relative to societies, individuals, situations, ect?
If you believe there is an absolute morality, can you articulate it and defend it?
Absolute Morality
Moderator: Dictators in Training
Absolute Morality
-Yamori
AKA ~~Baron Boshie of the Nameless~~
AKA ~~Baron Boshie of the Nameless~~
Re: Absolute Morality
Yamori wrote:Do you think there is an absolute morality - one moral code that is ALWAYS the correct way to act, or are ethics and morals relative to societies, individuals, situations, ect?
If you believe there is an absolute morality, can you articulate it and defend it?
Great question Yam. I would have to agree that the Ten Commandments are probably the best indicator of flawless morals. Dr. Laura gives some excellent advice too. Jews are smart! :P
Except the Hollywood liberal elite pinhead Jews of course.
“The more I study science the more I believe in God.” -- Albert Einstein
George Carlin to the rescue!
Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?
You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. Here's what happened:
About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.
Well let me ask you this- when they were making this shit up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bullshit list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.
Let's start with the first three:
I AM THE LORD THY GOD
THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN
THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH
Right off the bat the first three are pure bullshit. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:
HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER
Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.
Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.
THOU SHALT NOT STEAL
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS
Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.
And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE
Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital fidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.
But when you think about it, honesty and fidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR"S GOODS
This one is just plain fuckin' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:
THOU SHALT NOT KILL
Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Kashmir, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:
Thou shalt always be honest and faithful
to the provider of thy nookie.
&
Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course
they pray to a different invisible man than you.
Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his fuckin' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:
Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.
Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?
You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. Here's what happened:
About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.
Well let me ask you this- when they were making this shit up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bullshit list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.
Let's start with the first three:
I AM THE LORD THY GOD
THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN
THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH
Right off the bat the first three are pure bullshit. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:
HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER
Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.
Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.
THOU SHALT NOT STEAL
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS
Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.
And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE
Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital fidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.
But when you think about it, honesty and fidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR"S GOODS
This one is just plain fuckin' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:
THOU SHALT NOT KILL
Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Kashmir, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:
Thou shalt always be honest and faithful
to the provider of thy nookie.
&
Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course
they pray to a different invisible man than you.
Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his fuckin' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:
Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.
You were right Tikker. We suck.
mofish wrote:George Carlin to the rescue!
Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?
You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. Here's what happened:
About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.
Well let me ask you this- when they were making this shit up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bullshit list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.
Let's start with the first three:
I AM THE LORD THY GOD
THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN
THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH
Right off the bat the first three are pure bullshit. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:
HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER
Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.
Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.
THOU SHALT NOT STEAL
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS
Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.
And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE
Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital fidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.
But when you think about it, honesty and fidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR"S GOODS
This one is just plain fuckin' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:
THOU SHALT NOT KILL
Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Kashmir, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:
Thou shalt always be honest and faithful
to the provider of thy nookie.
&
Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course
they pray to a different invisible man than you.
Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his fuckin' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:
Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.
George Carlin sux.
“The more I study science the more I believe in God.” -- Albert Einstein
I think there is an absolute morality, however it consists only of NEGATIVES --- things you should NOT do. I don't think any positive "shoulds" can really stand up to the absolute moral test.
I think the basis of morality is human rights, and not violating them. In other words, don't initiate the use of force or fraud against any rational beings.
I think the basis of morality is human rights, and not violating them. In other words, don't initiate the use of force or fraud against any rational beings.
-Yamori
AKA ~~Baron Boshie of the Nameless~~
AKA ~~Baron Boshie of the Nameless~~
The 10 commandments are pretty shakey morally..
Honoring your father and mother is generally a good idea, but not an absolute. If your parents beat you for no reason, starve you, burn you with cigarettes, or happen to be a generally wretched human being, they don't deserve respect or honor.
Not Killing: again, generally a great idea. But what about intruders in your home, or what about defending your country in war?
Coveting other people's stuff: though I think envy is a petty and stupid emotion, it can none-the-less be a source of positive productivity. You want that cool honda car that your neighbor has, so you get a better job and work your butt off to get one - how is this morally wrong?
As good old George said, honoring no gods before jehova, keeping the sabbath holy, no false idols, and not using the lord's name in vain are pretty useless.
Coveting your neighbors wife? No one gets hurt if you don't act on it, so I can't see why this is morally wrong. Thoughts are not evil. There are also exceptions if you DID act on it, such as swingers couples. 0_o
Bearing false witness: again, generally a good idea, but not an absolute. If you lived in nazi germany and were hiding some jews in your home, and nazis knocked on your door and inquired about it, bearing false witness wouldn't be so bad. Also, if someone asks you a rude question that they have no right to, lying to them is fine in my book.
Stealing: again, a great idea usually not to steal. But I have no qualms about some of the pilfering the US did against the Nazis.
Honoring your father and mother is generally a good idea, but not an absolute. If your parents beat you for no reason, starve you, burn you with cigarettes, or happen to be a generally wretched human being, they don't deserve respect or honor.
Not Killing: again, generally a great idea. But what about intruders in your home, or what about defending your country in war?
Coveting other people's stuff: though I think envy is a petty and stupid emotion, it can none-the-less be a source of positive productivity. You want that cool honda car that your neighbor has, so you get a better job and work your butt off to get one - how is this morally wrong?
As good old George said, honoring no gods before jehova, keeping the sabbath holy, no false idols, and not using the lord's name in vain are pretty useless.
Coveting your neighbors wife? No one gets hurt if you don't act on it, so I can't see why this is morally wrong. Thoughts are not evil. There are also exceptions if you DID act on it, such as swingers couples. 0_o
Bearing false witness: again, generally a good idea, but not an absolute. If you lived in nazi germany and were hiding some jews in your home, and nazis knocked on your door and inquired about it, bearing false witness wouldn't be so bad. Also, if someone asks you a rude question that they have no right to, lying to them is fine in my book.
Stealing: again, a great idea usually not to steal. But I have no qualms about some of the pilfering the US did against the Nazis.
-Yamori
AKA ~~Baron Boshie of the Nameless~~
AKA ~~Baron Boshie of the Nameless~~
I'm rather partial to the CORRECT quote that Crowley stole his famous line from. The real statement of philosophy is: And it harm none, do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
The important key there is the first part, before the comma. Crowley, who was a rather large psycho, left that part out. The trick is in defining "harm", because, for example, a voluntary bottom in S&M play is obviously enjoying it, and thus not being harmed, whereas someone who wasn't into that, forced into the same circumstances would be being harmed.
-Arlos
Edit: PS: Q: What's the definition of a sadist? A: Someone who ties up a masochist and then refuses to hurt them. heh.
The important key there is the first part, before the comma. Crowley, who was a rather large psycho, left that part out. The trick is in defining "harm", because, for example, a voluntary bottom in S&M play is obviously enjoying it, and thus not being harmed, whereas someone who wasn't into that, forced into the same circumstances would be being harmed.
-Arlos
Edit: PS: Q: What's the definition of a sadist? A: Someone who ties up a masochist and then refuses to hurt them. heh.
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mappatazee
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I think it's more individual.. If you want to be an asshole, be an asshole, if you want to be a nice guy, be a nice guy, if you want to go on a murderous rampage, by all means do it... But expect society to side with the majority of the population and deal with you how they see fit. A collective moral/ethical code will only lead to confusion, misinterpretation, and rebellion, imo.
As long as we teach people to not be idiots, we'll be ok~
As long as we teach people to not be idiots, we'll be ok~
1) There is no such thing as absolute morality. The only reason that there is a sense of this is because different doctrines have been propagated to the masses over several generations.
Look at all of the people we regard as "fuckups" in society. They typically had no moral foundation instilled in them growing up, be it by teacher, parent, counsellor, clergy or other. In the absense of the morality of a given society, humans are inherently "evil".
Human beings don't *know* the difference between right and wrong, we have to be *taught* the difference between right and wrong.
2) George Carlin is hilarious.
Look at all of the people we regard as "fuckups" in society. They typically had no moral foundation instilled in them growing up, be it by teacher, parent, counsellor, clergy or other. In the absense of the morality of a given society, humans are inherently "evil".
Human beings don't *know* the difference between right and wrong, we have to be *taught* the difference between right and wrong.
2) George Carlin is hilarious.