New details in the Sgrena shooting

[Lyion]

As if anyone with common sense didn't see it.. The Soldiers were cleared. What a crock this is.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7491280/

Now, NBC News has learned that a preliminary report from a joint U.S.-Italian investigation has cleared the American soldiers of any wrongdoing and provides new details into the shooting.

Intelligence agent Calipari had just negotiated Sgrena's release from Iraqi kidnappers on March 4 when the two and a driver headed for the Baghdad airport in a compact rental car.

It was dark when the Italians turned onto a ramp leading to the airport road where the U.S. military had set up a temporary checkpoint.

The investigation found the car was about 130 yards from the checkpoint when the soldiers flashed their lights as a warning to stop. But the car kept coming and, at 90 yards, warning shots were fired. At 65 yards, when the car failed to stop, the soldiers used lethal force — a machine gun burst that killed Calipari and wounded Sgrena and the driver.

Senior U.S. military officials say it took only about four seconds from the first warning to the fatal shots, but insist the soldiers acted properly under the current rules of engagement.

The investigation failed, however, to resolve one critical dispute: The Americans claim the car was racing toward the checkpoint at about 50 miles per hour, the Italians say it was traveling at a much slower speed.

In Italy, agent Calipari was given a state funeral, but the investigation found he himself may have committed a fatal error. He reportedly chose not to coordinate his movements with the U.S. military for fear it would jeopardize his efforts to free the Italian hostage.

[Diekan]

35 yards in 4 seconds... hmmm...

There's 1760 yards to a mile.

Any math wizards here wanna convert that miles/hour?

[Harrison]

I could be wrong but I quickly thought 80 MPH

[Menlaan]

35 yards in 4 seconds... hmmm...

There's 1760 yards to a mile.

Any math wizards here wanna convert that miles/hour?

If I did it correctly, then it's about 18 miles per hour

(35 / 1760) / (4 / 3600) = 17.9 miles / hour

Menlaan

[Diekan]

I could be wrong but I quickly thought 80 MPH

Can't be... a good wide reciever can run a 4 / 40... 40 yards in 4 seconds.... and I don't think they're actually moving much more than 10/11 miles per hour. So, they must have been traveling around 10 miles per hour or so.

[Harrison]

This is of course speaking with those (very likely hypothetical) numbers given above.

[Martrae]

Menlaan that's 18 yards per hour...I think.

You also have to consider the warning shot is usually into the engine, right? I'd imagine the car slowed down quite a bit at that point. Too bad there's no point of reference for the warning lights and the shots.

[Menlaan]

In terms of units, it's:

[Yards / (Yards/Mile)] / [Seconds / (Seconds / Hour)] = Miles / Hour

Right?

Menlaan

[xaoshaen]

Just to clear things up:

Initial warning to lethal shots: 4 seconds, 65 yards (130 - 65).

(1mi/1760yds) * (65y/4s) * (3600s/1hr) = (65*3600)/(4*1760) = 33mph.

Of course, this is largely meaningless as far as determining the actual speed of the car when it encountered the Americans. Having searchlights, assault rifle fire, and machine gun fire directed your way is going to provoke a response of some sort, even if it isn't the logical one of stopping.

[Menlaan]

Just to clear things up:

Initial warning to lethal shots: 4 seconds, 65 yards (130 - 65).

(1mi/1760yds) * (65y/4s) * (3600s/1hr) = (65*3600)/(4*1760) = 33mph.

Of course, this is largely meaningless as far as determining the actual speed of the car when it encountered the Americans. Having searchlights, assault rifle fire, and machine gun fire directed your way is going to provoke a response of some sort, even if it isn't the logical one of stopping.

That's the same calculation I did (but with 65 instead of 35 yards over the 4 seconds).

Menlaan

[Diekan]

They fired warning shots at 90 yards - then used lethal force at 65 yards = 35 total yards difference between the intial warning shots and the lethal shots... 35 in 4 seconds...

[xaoshaen]

The investigation found the car was about 130 yards from the checkpoint when the soldiers flashed their lights as a warning to stop. But the car kept coming and, at 90 yards, warning shots were fired. At 65 yards, when the car failed to stop, the soldiers used lethal force — a machine gun burst that killed Calipari and wounded Sgrena and the driver.

Senior U.S. military officials say it took only about four seconds from the first warning to the fatal shots, but insist the soldiers acted properly under the current rules of engagement.

65 in 4 seconds, according to the article.

Also, 90 - 65 != 35....

[Diekan]

That's not right.

It clearly says, as you even pointed out in bold, that the warning shots were fired at 90 yards. The fatal shots were fired at 65 yards. It took 4 seconds for the car to travel from 90 yards to 65 yards.

How the hell can you misread that?

The FLASHED their lights at 130 yards and did NOT fire warning shots UNTIL the car was 90 YARDS away.

[Gidan]

I all comes down to the phrase "four seconds from the first warning". If they are talking about flashign the lights as the first warning that it was 65yards in 4 seconds. If they are talking about the warning shot as the first warning then its 25yards in 4 seconds.

[xaoshaen]

Senior U.S. military officials say it took only about four seconds from the first warning to the fatal shots

First warning. Not first warning shots. First warning.

The investigation found the car was about 130 yards from the checkpoint when the soldiers flashed their lights as a warning to stop.

[xaoshaen]

I all comes down to the phrase "four seconds from the first warning". If they are talking about flashign the lights as the first warning that it was 65yards in 4 seconds. If they are talking about the warning shot as the first warning then its 25yards in 4 seconds.

The article very clearly delineates the flashing lights as a "warning" and sets the timeline as occuring between the first warning and the fatal shots. It's entirely possible that the author wrote it incorrectly, but as written the distance is 65 yards.

[Menlaan]

The article very clearly delineates the flashing lights as a "warning" and sets the timeline as occuring between the first warning and the fatal shots. It's entirely possible that the author wrote it incorrectly, but as written the distance is 65 yards.

I agree with Xaoshaen (I hadn't read the article before but was just answering the math question). Also, 33 MPH seems a little bit more reasonable to me as the speed for a car that has to be shot-down.

Menlaan

[Tikker]

erm

isn't 33mph about the normal rate of travel in a city?

[kaharthemad]

remember the tank had already fired 'hundreds' of round into the car killing noone a few seconds earlier.

[Harrison]

rofl

THEY HAD A TANK SHOOTING AT US!!!

[Menlaan]

erm

isn't 33mph about the normal rate of travel in a city?

My point is that 18 miles an hour seems awfully slow for a car that has to be shot down. 33 mph seems more reasonable (as would higher speeds).

Menlaan

[Lyion]

On a very dark road frequented by terrorists and where many Americans have died, 35 mph can seem pretty damn fast.

Sgrena is a liar. Her story has been debunked and this is their fuck up.

I'm sure she'll continue to make things up and bullshit. What a waste of oxygen.

[Captain Insano]

In a war zone you shoot first ask questions later. There isn't time to engage the fucking democrats and have a fucking committee on whether a speeding car could be filled with explosives or not. If a few innocents get killed so fucking what? Saddam was killing them by the thousands every day. Tell those stinky I'tais to shut their mouths and go take a bath.

[Eziekial]

Italians are very hygienic. You mistake us for Greeks who make pigs look clean.

[Captain Insano]

Oh yes..sorry my mistake.