Drug the children

Eziekial · Post by **Eziekial** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:48 am

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2005/tst062705.htm

Seems like our government can't sit by and allow millions of children suffer from mental disorders even if they don't have any. Not only is a mandatory screening overstepping the boundary of government, it undermines parental control over children which is the last thing we need to do more of in this country.

labbats · Post by **labbats** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:16 am

Whoa, wait a minute. Government overstepping their authority? You mean like strongarming the states to do whatever they want or they'll withhold all federal funding? Or are you talking about Federal Judges deciding that states allowing medicinal marijuana have no say? Or maybe you're talking about the law passed just yesterday allowing the government to destroy any land they see fit in the name of building new shopping malls. Maybe you're talking about gay marriage this time. None of the above were voted on, in fact, most went against voter's wishes.

Spazz · Post by **Spazz** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:22 am

Im sure ya dont realize it but the govt is just doin whats best for You

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:25 am

Eziekial wrote:http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2005/tst062705.htm

Seems like our government can't sit by and allow millions of children suffer from mental disorders even if they don't have any. Not only is a mandatory screening overstepping the boundary of government, it undermines parental control over children which is the last thing we need to do more of in this country.

Mental health is important, and the writer of this article doesn't sound very informed on the issue of mental illness, but the government is really overstepping their bounds here. It's not their business.

That aside, this seems strange to do, since most serious mental illness comes about in young adulthood (16-30), not childhood.

Eziekial · Post by **Eziekial** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:58 am

Dr. Ron Paul:

Ron Paul was born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He graduated from Gettysburg College and the Duke University School of Medicine, before proudly serving as a flight surgeon in the U.S. Air Force during the 1960s. He and his wife Carol moved to Texas in 1968, where he began his medical practice in Brazoria County. As a specialist in obstetrics/gynecology, Dr. Paul has delivered more than 4,000 babies! He and Carol, who reside in Surfside Beach, Texas, are the proud parents of five children and have seventeen grandchildren.

Current member of congress representing the 14 district of Texas. Not very informed indeed!

veeneedefeesh · Post by **veeneedefeesh** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:01 am

It is bad enough that teachers now send kids home saying that they are ADHD and "you should put him on Ridalin". What is really sad is that many parents allow the teacher to make this diagnosis and then follow through on it "for the child's good. (hello a bachelors in english doesnt qualify you to make psychaitric diagnosis) but now they will have the "Scientific" backup to require that these children are placed on drugs. At least now you have the option of saying "kiss my ass you arent going to put my kids on narcotics just because you are too stupid/lazy to teach him/her in a way that they benefit from".

Why does it not surprise me that this is coming from the White house? I am telling you by 2008 we will be living in Big Brother land and the concept of your inalienable human rights will be alien...

Harrison · Post by **Harrison** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:04 am

Ritalin is a hell of a drug

veeneedefeesh · Post by **veeneedefeesh** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:07 am

Yamori wrote:That aside, this seems strange to do, since most serious mental illness comes about in young adulthood (16-30), not childhood.

They arent looking for schizophrenia, OCD, and the other serious psychosis Yammy, they are trying to justify narcing kids because they are "unruly". Things like schizophrenia are self evident you dont need to test to find out if someone is hearing voices, you don't need a test to see that a child is washing his hands 250 times per day, but you do want to have backup when you tell a parent, "If you don't get your child on Ridalin then he can't come back to school"

Just another case of the Phamacuetical companies coming up with ways to sell more drugs and the gov't allowing them to do it because the pharm companies are paying them off and because it is much easier to control people who are all whacked out on the shit the pharm companies are feeding them.

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:13 am

So? He's a normal medical doctor, not a psychiatrist. A lot of doctors are not well educated on the subject of mental illness. Their speciality is the body, not the mind.

-Psychiatric diagnoses are inherently subjective and based on “social constructions”;

This speaks volumes to me. Granted there is always some level of subjectivity because most diagnosises require input from the patient, but if you've ever seen a major mental illness in full swing (ie, bipolar, major depression, schizophrenia), you'd know that this "inherently subjective social construction" thing is a bunch of bullshit. Something is obviously very wrong with the person.

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:17 am

They arent looking for schizophrenia, OCD, and the other serious psychosis Yammy,

Hrm, where did they say they wouldn't be including major mental illnesses?

I would be against it even if that is what they were screening for... but I don't even see the point in just testing kids for ADD. It doesn't make any sense other than from a $$$ standpoint, which I guess is the main reason. *shrug*

Post by **Martrae** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:24 am

It's just one more step in controlling our lives.

veeneedefeesh · Post by **veeneedefeesh** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:29 am

Like I said, the major illnesses are usually self evident, why would you need madatory testing, no from just the blurb I read I am thinking they are going after the ADHD crowd which is "inherently subjective social construction" (translation:I dont want to deal with your kids so I will subjectively say they are ADHD and attempt to strongarm you into getting a Ritalin perscription for them)

I spent a year working with kids at a state run mental hospital and 85% of the kids there had a diagnosis of "Oppositional Defiant" which loosely translates to "they think for themselves and will question authority" It also means that they sometimes pitch a fit when they dont get their way, but proper discipline and a structured environment cures that.

If a middle school teacher with an M.D. in Psychiatry tells me that my kid is ADHD then I MIGHT believe them, but last time I checked most people with an M.D. aren't taking $25,000/year jobs as school teachers. If any teacher told me that my child was ADHD and recommended Ritalin then I think I might just have to punch them in the mouth. :-x

The Kizzy · Post by **The Kizzy** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:42 pm

veeneedefeesh wrote:It is bad enough that teachers now send kids home saying that they are ADHD and "you should put him on Ridalin". What is really sad is that many parents allow the teacher to make this diagnosis and then follow through on it "for the child's good. (hello a bachelors in english doesnt qualify you to make psychaitric diagnosis) but now they will have the "Scientific" backup to require that these children are placed on drugs. At least now you have the option of saying "kiss my ass you arent going to put my kids on narcotics just because you are too stupid/lazy to teach him/her in a way that they benefit from".

Why does it not surprise me that this is coming from the White house? I am telling you by 2008 we will be living in Big Brother land and the concept of your inalienable human rights will be alien...

Actually, when the teacher notices a problem, they send a letter home to the parent asking permission to have teh child evaluated by a psychiatrist. Who watches them in a classroom setting, and then does extensive testing before they come to a decision on whether the child needs just counseling, medication, or both.

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:51 pm

What the fuck is wrong with you people? Havent you guys been listening to Tom Cruise?
Psychiatry and mood altering drugs are evil. Evil, he tells you.

araby · Post by **araby** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:05 pm

Phlegm wrote:What the fuck is wrong with you people? Havent you guys been listening to Tom Cruise?
Psychiatry and mood altering drugs are evil. Evil, he tells you.

I heard that interview this morning, well, most of his interview with Matt Lauer anyway.

Honestly, I've always felt the same way, but not like he does. What I mean for myself, is that I"ve always been strongly against anti-depressants and other mood-altering drugs, when what can make you better is inside yourself. You're only treating some symptoms, and ignoring the total problem. America is heavily medicated and the problems aren't really getting any better for anyone. Take my friend for instance. He's been on adderall since he was like 12. Now that he's 23, he can't go without it. But he's not focused at all. In fact, he's a total mess.

however, there are certain disorders that require medication, and we all know crazy people have been around since the beginning of time. If they work for them, then great...but I think things have gone way too far.

Tom Cruise has lost his mind though.

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:12 pm

Araby wrote:Tom Cruise has lost his mind though.

Do you think Tom Cruise need drugs to find his lost mind? That would be ironic.

Post by **Lyion** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:24 pm

Araby wrote:
Phlegm wrote:What the fuck is wrong with you people? Havent you guys been listening to Tom Cruise?
Psychiatry and mood altering drugs are evil. Evil, he tells you.

I heard that interview this morning, well, most of his interview with Matt Lauer anyway.

Honestly, I've always felt the same way, but not like he does. What I mean for myself, is that I"ve always been strongly against anti-depressants and other mood-altering drugs, when what can make you better is inside yourself.

Tom Cruise has lost his mind though.

I agree with all those points, Araby. I hate the fact so many kids are being drugged to 'fix' them. It is not the answer, and really is causing all these 'mental' problems as adults.

Tom is nucking futz, too.

The Kizzy · Post by **The Kizzy** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:22 pm

In my son's case, I decided to stick with the counseling, because everything was brought on by the divorce, and I know that was a huge factor. He is doing so well, and his teachers say that he has got his mind on his work, and he is a huge help, and a joy to be around, now. His father and I decided to go against the medication advice and we are both glad that we did.

One of my friends from work, on the other hand, has a daughter on Ritalin, and he is glad he did so. She would be working on a proiject and seem to loose interest, and move on to something else. With the Ritalin it helps her stay focused, and her grades skyrocketed.

I do feel, however, that everyone jumps to say Ritalin without trying other methods. My old bosses daughter was diagnosed with ADD and she refused to put her on medication, and looking back, she wishes that she would have.

Wrath Child · Post by **Wrath Child** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:27 am

Most kids "diagnosed" with ADD or anything similiar usually fall into 1 of 2 categories: They were raised by strangers(AKA starting daycare weeks after birth) or have parents who barely spend any positive time with him or her and allow them to do anything they want with no real consistant punishment. Often it's both.

So what do these lousy parents do to make up for their mistakes? Pump their now uncontrollable offspring with Ritalin.

Post by **Arlos** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:16 am

Honestly, I've always felt the same way, but not like he does. What I mean for myself, is that I"ve always been strongly against anti-depressants and other mood-altering drugs, when what can make you better is inside yourself. You're only treating some symptoms, and ignoring the total problem.

Would you condemn a diabetic for taking insulin? How about a someone with high blood pressure taking something for hypertension? Perhaps a heart patient for taking nitroglycerine pills? How about someone with a non-functioning thyroid from taking a thyroid replacement supplement pill?

Depression in MANY cases is a CHEMICAL IMBALANCE in the brain. It's nothing you can "choose" not to be. It is NO different than a diabetic who's body doesn't produce the right chemicals to be able to process sugar, requiring external drugs in order for the body to function properly. It is your attitude that these people are somehow deficient or "wrong" for taking necessary medication to correct a PHYSICAL problem that has led to such social stigma against depression.

Yes, in some cases it is just a mental issue, but that is actually FAR from even the majority of the time. ADD and ADHD are rather similar. The brain does not produce enough neurotransmitters, resulting in behavioral issues. I should know, I *HAVE* ADD. I was once perscribed amphetamines to deal with it, and I actually could sleep better on speed than without. You tell me the logic of someone with normal brain chemistry taking fairly high doses of medical speed and being better able to sleep than when taking nothing, unless the speed is fixing a chemical imbalance, and correcting the brain chemistry.

-Arlos

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:11 am

I"ve always been strongly against anti-depressants and other mood-altering drugs, when what can make you better is inside yourself. You're only treating some symptoms, and ignoring the total problem.

Anti-depressants aren't really a mood altering drug. They don't make people "happy." They correct chemical imbalances and allow people to function a bit better - since as Arlos mentioned depression is largely based on deficiencies in brain chemistry that literally don't allow people to feel good. Although you are right, medication alone isn't usually enough - a combination of pills and therapy usually work best.

Eziekial · Post by **Eziekial** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:06 am

Don't our minds control the chemicals in our bodies?

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:37 am

Eziekial wrote:Don't our minds control the chemicals in our bodies?

Take some LSD and see if your mind can control the chemical changes that happen with that.

Your mind and attitudes can have some influence on chemicals, but if there is a large enough imbalance it dramatically effects your behaviors and perceptions. People aren't entirely out of control - they can choose how to deal with and manage their problems - but serious mental illness isn't something that can just be willed away with a positive attitude.

Post by **Lyion** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:04 am

What a bizarre answer.

His point was to not put drugs into your mind since it can regulate itself, and your answer was yeah, well put drugs in and see how well it regulates...

I'm a tad perplexed.

Anyways, the simple answer is we have no deep knowledge and the answer is far too often to medicate to 'fix' where the body might be better off without the drugs.

It's vastly different than a drug one takes for personal pleasure that fucks up your brain, or something someone needs like Insulin.

Strange, strange comparisons.

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:58 am

lyion wrote:What a bizarre answer.

His point was to not put drugs into your mind since it can regulate itself, and your answer was yeah, well put drugs in and see how well it regulates...

I'm a tad perplexed.

Anyways, the simple answer is we have no deep knowledge and the answer is far too often to medicate to 'fix' where the body might be better off without the drugs.

It's vastly different than a drug one takes for personal pleasure that fucks up your brain, or something someone needs like Insulin.

Strange, strange comparisons.

No. The point is, he is saying that he thinks "the mind itself regulates brain chemistry" - to which I responded - see how well that hypothesis holds up when you radically alter your chemistry - see if your mind can control itself.

If you want an example without outside agents, suppose you start hearing voices telling you to kill yourself, and you see frightening things that are not really there. Your thinking becomes grossly disorganized. Your feelings very strongly tell you that people are plotting to kill you, no matter how hard you try to reason against it. How exactly is your mind supposed to "regulate itself" out of that?

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