*sigh*

[Lueyen]

I'd be fine if we couldn't do it.

Just take away our deadzone too.

Why would one necessitate the other? Removing the dead zone would enable hunters to virtually always have a ranged attack option, and those ranged attacks already don't miss, get resisted, dodged, blocked or parried (you know the sort of thing EVERY other class has to deal with).

[Donnel]

But if you can't use them because you can't use traps to get to range...

not saying that's the only way to get to range, it is one of the best though.

[Lueyen]

Exactly, currently there is no passive defense to completely negate hunter ranged damage. For everything else, magic or melee through gear you can gain a passive chance to completely avoid any damage from the attack. With hunters to completely avoid the damage you have to deny them the ability to attack you at range. Not only do they have a way every thirty seconds to easily force that positional advantage, but they have other ways as well.

[Donnel]

So what you are saying is, because it's in YOUR best interest to not allow us to get to range, we should be denied the ability.

You can resist frost traps you know. Get some frost resist, or an ice deflector and guess what, we are frozen now!

I forgot though, you play a rogue don't ya.

Rogue = Paper
Hunter = Scissors

[Tacks]

Lol yeah, with the overabundance of Frost gear out there I'm sure he'll be fine. And since that doesn't work you need to change your profession!

There is no other encounter that is so one sided. If you lose to a rogue you should delete your account and quit playing video games because you blow. Not only are Hunters the scissors to rogues but they're the scissors to every caster class when using the nerfbat pet. Hunters are made for the no-talent asstards who can't pvp otherwise.

[Donnel]

Nerfbat pet? Lawl

My pet does like 17 damage a hit. Whoopty-do.

Are you saying you can't get frost resistance or that you can't resist the trap? Because you can resist the trap, no doubt about that.

I get beat just like anyone else. We aren't the scissors to everyone, only people who don't know how to pvp.

There, I made a generalization too.

P.S. I can PVP with other toons too.

[Tacks]

it's not the damage the pet does, it's all the other bullshit, do you use the ZG bat? If you do then i'm pretty sure my generalizations are spot-on. You're a fucking moron if you think we should completely ditch our gear to use frost resist gear just to resist your borderline exploit of a move.

[Donnel]

Hey I'm just saying that there *is* a counter.

I use a wolf.

[Tacks]

There also *is* a chance it will snow in Florida, but when does it happen?

[Donnel]

So I still don't understand how we are the scissors to everyone.

Pally's, Druids, Shadow Priests, Warlocks... all give me serious runs for my proverbial gold coin. If a mage spots me before I can return the favor it's good game me. I can still be stunlocked, there's nothing that directly stops that save once every 5 minutes from trinket.

For the record, I've changed my opinion on the trap change in light of new info. Traps are given a stealth level now instead of just being invisible. I think that change is okay.

FD/Trap is not something that needs to be changed though.

[Tae-Bo]

lol faggots whining about 1 on 1

[Lueyen]

So what you are saying is, because it's in YOUR best interest to not allow us to get to range, we should be denied the ability.

When a proactive measure must be taken due to the lack of passive counters for a single class, I see it as unbalanced to begin with. To further add to this the ability to every 30 seconds easily negate the proactive counter the imbalance is even worse. So yes when you suggest that the removal of an already overpowered situation needs to be balanced by the removal of YOUR "need" for such an ability, yes I take issue with it. The whole point of arguing for the removal or limitation of frequency of this ability is that it negates the only way to completely avoid damage. I'm not even suggesting here that we deal with the root imbalance of no passive way to avoid the damage (we all know that a large percentage of the hunter community would have a melt down if they had to deal with the same situations that apply to EVERYONE else if their attacks actually missed on occasion).

You can resist frost traps you know. Get some frost resist, or an ice deflector and guess what, we are frozen now!

So your answer to counter inate class abilities is picking a particular profession (or using purchased limited resources from that profession). Or to have superior gear to your opponent, because as it stands a hunter in greens can do the combo, but unless you are in something besides greens with some decent enchants your resists will not be enough to resist the trap with any frequency especially every 30 seconds.

I forgot though, you play a rogue don't ya.

Rogue = Paper
Hunter = Scissors

Yes you are correct, I do play a rogue (as well as other classes), but my rogue is my primary character. And while I think the fd/trap is overpowered for other classes as well, it does lend the greatest disadvantage to a rogue.

Of course the rock/paper/scissors is always used as a sort of trump card by hunters when discussing rogue vs hunter balance. While the original intent may have been to have one class counter another, changes to classes and the relative equality in matchups against most classes tend to point out another line of thinking. If you doubt that, ask yourself this. What class has the scales tipped so completely against hunters and a hunter has against rogues? Then also look at the "paper" to the rogue scissors... most would say mages, yet that combination is much more balanced. The rock paper scissors argument is a falacy, the game no longer operates around that premise with a few exceptions, one of which being the rogue vs hunter scenario.

All else aside, if things are never changed to bring hunters more into balance with other classes there is one positive aspect for me personally. I make a habit of targeting and killing hunters specifically, and I do come out on top the majority of the time. This isn't bragging, quite the opposite, if it was I'd have to conceed that hunters are not overpowered against rogues. The real core truth of the matter is this, someone playing a hunter who knows what they are doing and is proficient and skilled with the class will hand me my ass virtually any time. What I have found though, and I attribute this mostly too the relative overpower of the class, in general is that the class at the moment attracts the greatest amount of players who lack in skill and expierence (well those who aren't busy twinking some lowbie characters so they can "pwn" in the lower levels bg's because they can't hack it at 60). I tend to open with CS and follow up with a rupture, and the vast majority of the time this prevents the FD trap, as a general rule the majority of hunters have no idea how to react to not easily being able to pull this off if at all. The ones that do have a clue tend to turn around and destroy me, but in the end the ratio off good hunters to clueless ones is stacked very heavily toward clueless, providing a plethora of easy wins. So if Blizzard brings them more into balance I'll have to start working harder for my bread and butter kills~. Incidentally it was the use of fd/trap that got me started on this, mainly because it annoyed me to the point that I started to jot down a list of hunters who used it in excess, to be an unrelenting pain to them, and as the list grew I realized just how many hunters didn't know what to do when denied this, threw away my list and decided the class for the most part was on farm status.

[Ouchyfish]

lol faggots whining about 1 on 1

[Lueyen]

lol faggots whining about 1 on 1

lol idiot who can't follow the discussion or post a constructive thought.

[Tae-Bo]

you post that right after you talk about trying to take a hunter 1 on 1, and yet it's common knowledge that the game isn't balanced around that

maybe you should set your emotions aside and target something other than a hunter when you're group pvping

(or work with your team instead)

[Tacks]

Don't worry, whenever you can't make a logical comeback just tell people they suck and need more players to help them kill someone!

[Ouchyfish]

Don't worry, whenever you can't make a logical comeback just tell people to shut the fuck up you stupid motherfucker!

[Donnel]

Lue, you know I respect you bud so don't think I'm disagreeing with you because I don't like ya.

What other class can be shut down by just moving close to them? Is a mage less effective when you stand next to them? Arguably yes, because you can interrupt their spells, but less so since a Frost Nova and Blink will take care of that problem.

You say that rock-paper-scissors is a fallacy but I disagree strongly. You know who a hunters scissors is? Paladins and Warlocks. We have no counter to fear, we have no fear of our own except on other hunters pets or feral druids, we get completely trounced by warlocks 1v1 because they don't have to stay far away to dot and nuke. Paladins proactively negate our one major advantage, snare + kite. Blessing of Freedom is more a hunter killer then any other paladin ability.

Hamstring? Crippling Poison? Any snare at all is a bane to our #1 requirement, mobility.

And armor does mitigate our damage same as any other physical attack. I know that doesn't mean much to a rogue since your armor isn't what makes you shine, but did you ever think that that was part of why we can win against rogues more often then not? Nothing quite like plinking away at a tin can (Pally/Warrior) and seeing your normal autoshot hits getting cut in half. You know you are in trouble then because one intercept/hamstring later and it's typically game over.

All I am saying is, let's not call an apple an orange here. You don't like the move? Okay. You think it's cheap? No problem. Let's not cross over the line here and call it an exploit which it very clearly is not. There is no abuse of the game mechanics involved. You must be out of combat to drop a trap, FD drops you out of combat. Easy enough.

If that's an abuse of game mechanics then getting into our deadzone should be an exploit as well.

[Tacks]

This isn't even worth talking about, you obviously think your no-talent move is acceptable and nothing will change that. Continue being a gimp, that's fine but I've seen lots of hunters own people's faces without CHEATING.

[Donnel]

Lawl

I rarely use the technique in pvp (though I use it all the time in pve double trapping a mob we want out of the fight for awhile) unless it provides a clear cut advantage. For example, if I'm engaged 1v1 and a second person joins in. FD/Trap the first target and either engage the second or sic pet and cheetah away.

The talent isn't spamming the button. The talent is knowing when to use it for greatest effect.

Not cheating.

[Tacks]

Like I said it's not worth arguing about. Nothing anyone says is going to change your mind. Do whatever you want, just know you're a half-assed hunter who's not even level capped yet.

[Donnel]

Okay so I'm a half-assed hunter who owns rogues and does well against other classes as well for the most part.

Oh noes, don't flame me because I don't get to play but two or three nights a week for a couple hours. Eek, I'm melting because I'm not level capped.

[Tacks]

1) if you don't own rogues you're fucking horrible, press attack and kill people, wow thats tough

2) if you haven't pvp'd at 60 you haven't done shit, your opinions mean nothing

[Donnel]

1) 2 2 2 2 2

2) k

[Tacks]

thanks for playing, let us know when you play with the big kids.