House passed strip search bill...

[Spazz]

Why in the fuck do teachers need the right to strip search students ?

[Jimmy Durante]

Why in the fuck do teachers need the right to strip search students ?

Having summers off wasn't enough of a perk.

[Lyion]

It is possible to improve public schools without dismantling them entirely. You fail to take into account the fact that there ARE a great many well-performing public schools, that actually provide a good education. I went to public schools my entire life, save for 1 semester when I lived in Kansas, and came out of high school with 20-something credits of AP classes and a 1500 on the SAT. Would hardly indicate a "failed" school system here in California, eh?

Explain how? Saying it can be better is not an answer. Again, the point here isn't to say every school is bad, but that choice is always better.

It is a broken, socialist, overpriced system that should be overhauled.

Competition and accountability breeds success. Neither is overtly present in the school system. Public schools generally instill mediocrity and allows for many poor teachers to have guaranteed work when they should not.

Why do you despise allowing people to have choice? That's all this really boils down to. That's what vouchers are for.

School vouchers have repeatedly come up for vote here in California via the initiative ballot system, so we vote on them as statewide measures. Every single time it's come up for vote, it's been voted down by significant margins. The Voucher supporters have pretty much given up at this point, but they cannot even begin to claim they didn't get a fair chance, as we had no less than 3 or 4 voucher initiatives in a 5 year span. None even came close to getting even a simple majority.

Ok. That doesn't make it right, wrong, or whatever. It just means the teachers unions and their allies have an assload of cash and politick the sheep in California to vote a certain way.

By that mindset gay marriage shouldn't even be considered, since such a huge majority are against it.

[Ginzburgh]

Lyion, I know many, many, many people who received public school educations that are doing very well right now in a variety of different fields. Like anything else, school is what you make it. I have two cousins who both went to the most expensive private school in connecticut and they are now in their late 20s/early 30s and are laborers and live with their parents.

[Arlos]

I am against voucher schools, for a primary reason, because they equate to a rebate to those who are already rich enough to send their kids to private schools anyway. As private institutions, they will be able to exclude enrollment to whoever they so choose. The best ones will still cost money on top of what the vouchers cover.

Current private schools will just declare themselves to be exclusive voucher schools, and not one person who couldn't go there anyway would go there afterwards, it would just amount to a rebate to the rich, who don't exactly need the money.

Meanwhile, the public school system would be gutted, as every dollar that went to a voucher school would come out of its budget, and they already don't have enough money.

Besides which, as I said, there will be no accounting for standards at such private schools. They could teach anything and everything on top of whatever limited required core that're required. Sorry, but I have no interest in my tax dollars going to fund the KKK academy or some christian school that is teaching creationism.

Yes, there are some reforms needed in the public school system, but if you really want to make a change, work with it; join the PTA and/or get yourself elected to the school board. Don't blow up the entire system.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

Everything is a red herring against this simple premise:

the point here isn't to say every school is bad, but that choice is always better.

The best answer is indeed to blow up public government schools as they are a bloated bureaucratic inefficient overexpensive mess and allow freedom of choice. Being mad that people sending their kids to better private schools will get vouchers seems very petty. Hey, inner city schools suck complete ass and are not fixable regardless of the government cash thrown at them, but let's not give those kids options because rich kids parents might get vouchers!

The point here is kids at very bad schools will have choices, and thats what we want to address. it doesn't mean every kid will succeed but that parents have options and the defunct poor union structure that has many substandard teachers who are untouchable will finally have some sort of accountability.

[Naethyn]

I am against voucher schools, for a primary reason, because they equate to a rebate to those who are already rich enough to send their kids to private schools anyway. As private institutions, they will be able to exclude enrollment to whoever they so choose. The best ones will still cost money on top of what the vouchers cover.

Current private schools will just declare themselves to be exclusive voucher schools, and not one person who couldn't go there anyway would go there afterwards, it would just amount to a rebate to the rich, who don't exactly need the money.

Meanwhile, the public school system would be gutted, as every dollar that went to a voucher school would come out of its budget, and they already don't have enough money.

Besides which, as I said, there will be no accounting for standards at such private schools. They could teach anything and everything on top of whatever limited required core that're required. Sorry, but I have no interest in my tax dollars going to fund the KKK academy or some christian school that is teaching creationism.

Yes, there are some reforms needed in the public school system, but if you really want to make a change, work with it; join the PTA and/or get yourself elected to the school board. Don't blow up the entire system.

-Arlos

exactly

[Arlos]

Obviously, Lyion considers his kids "Too Good" for public schools, and wants to send them to private schools, without having to suffer any economic hardship for doing so. Talk about your elitist attitudes...

No, my arguments against Vouchers are *NOT* red herrings, they are legitimate concerns, and the fact that you continually ignore them tells me you have no counter-argument against them, you just choose to ignore anything that doesn't fit in with your worldview of: Teacher Union BAD, Vouchers GOOD.

I see NO reason why my tax dollars should go towards the elementary school of the KKK or to the high school equivalent of Bob Jones University. If you want to not send your kids to a private school, you can pay for it your damn self. Don't expect me or anyone else to help you out.

Vouchers also won't help those cases you mention. Any school that's going to be an upgrade will charge a tuition on top of the money they take in from vouchers. Meanwhile, those inner city kids you feign such pathos for will have the choice of voucher schools that are as bad or worse than the previous choices, or public schooling, which will have been gutted from its previous levels by the diversion of funds to voucher schools.

Sorry, no. The system as it is construed can and DOES work in a large number of cases. Bklowing it up entirely is asinine at best. If you don't like your local system, run for School Board and work to institute changes.

-Arlos

[Ginzburgh]

The point here is kids at very bad schools will have choices, and thats what we want to address. it doesn't mean every kid will succeed but that parents have options and the defunct poor union structure that has many substandard teachers who are untouchable will finally have some sort of accountability.

But what will they blame their lack of success and general laziness on?

[Hylissa]

what exactly are these vouchers you speak of?

[Arlos]

Basically, Hylissa, public schools here get X amount of money for each student attending them. What vouchers want to do is to take that pot of tax money that goes to public schooling, and pay it to private schools based on how many students are going there.

That's the "voucher", the tax money equivalent of 1 student.

The issues that none of the voucher fanatics bring up are manyfold. 1) Many more students will now be used to divvy up that tax money, as all students attending private schools will be included as well, so the available tax money per student will be markedly lower. 2) As a result, even if public schools maintained the same enrollment, they'd get significantly less money, as private schools would be getting tax money now. (possibly giving a rebate to the parents in the form of lower tuition, possibly not). 3) There's very little controls over the content and curriculum of these "voucher schools", so you could have public money funding religious institutes (big no no under the US constitution), or have tax dollars paying for schools teaching the moon is made of green cheese, etc.

-Arlos

[Yamori]

A school at the top end of the spectrum of mediocrity is still mediocre.

I've probably said it before, but the public schools I went to was a "great" school. It was extremely well funded. It was clean, in a safe neighborhood, and maintained order to a decent degree. It produced good test scores and a high graduation rate.

It was still an utterly shitty, wasteful experience.

90% of the people graduating had no idea about what the world is and how it works in a generalized way (that is, basic concepts of history, language, mathematics, science, and politics) that would stick with them throughout their lives. They did not leave as critical thinkers. They did not leave as well-rounded citizens who were better prepared for functioning well in the adult world.

Instead they left school as a batch of people who sat around in a building every day for 4 years doing busywork and memorizing answers to tests.

Even putting issues efficiency of hiring/firing, and control over whom is selected as students aside - the lack of competition makes even well funded schools a shameful waste of potential, time, and money.

I think the problem here is a major difference in basic philosophies.

If there is a demand to make all peoples' educations equal, inevitably it means that either all schools in the country must be amazingly superb - or that those who could get a significantly better education than others will need to be dragged down in the name of fairness and equality. And I think that's insane.

People need to face the facts that equality of education does not exist, nor will it ever. Even under the current socialized system of schools, there are huge differences between schools in poor areas and schools in affluent areas. By all means society should strive for giving everyone a good education - but it should not strive to enforce an equal one.

I'd personally like to see some people get a barely acceptable education, while others get a great education... than to see almost everyone get an equally 'barely acceptable' education. Because as of right now, people basically become educated and successful in spite of their basic education - definitely not because of it. Something is very wrong with that.

[Gargamellow]

Excuse me but there are more ndrugs and weapons in schools these days than meets the eye. I for one would rather have my kid be searched along with some other gun-toting punk, rather than have that gun-toting punk shoot my fucking kid in the face for telling him to fuck off or something.

The world is not the same as it used to be. Things are out of control worse than ever. I can't blame anyone but our own society for forgetting not God, but the basic principles on which our nation was founded.

Hell YES let's search these young punks who are bringing crack into the classrooms! How can anyone learn with poison being peer pressured right into their brains? And don't tell me that peer pressure doesn't exist because it does, and at all levels of age.

Hell YES I agree with searching anyone who walks into the halls of my child's learning center. Search them ALL.

If they don't like their rights being stripped form them, perhaps they should move to another country where the government doesn't exist so they can be shot in the face for crossing the street by more than just punk kids.

God forbid we crack down on your children and try to save their futures, maybe even their lives.

[Naethyn]

A school at the top end of the spectrum of mediocrity is still mediocre.

I've probably said it before, but the public schools I went to was a "great" school. It was extremely well funded. It was clean, in a safe neighborhood, and maintained order to a decent degree. It produced good test scores and a high graduation rate.

It was still an utterly shitty, wasteful experience.

90% of the people graduating had no idea about what the world is and how it works in a generalized way (that is, basic concepts of history, language, mathematics, science, and politics) that would stick with them throughout their lives. They did not leave as critical thinkers. They did not leave as well-rounded citizens who were better prepared for functioning well in the adult world.

Instead they left school as a batch of people who sat around in a building every day for 4 years doing busywork and memorizing answers to tests.

Even putting issues efficiency of hiring/firing, and control over whom is selected as students aside - the lack of competition makes even well funded schools a shameful waste of potential, time, and money.

I think the problem here is a major difference in basic philosophies.

If there is a demand to make all peoples' educations equal, inevitably it means that either all schools in the country must be amazingly superb - or that those who could get a significantly better education than others will need to be dragged down in the name of fairness and equality. And I think that's insane.

People need to face the facts that equality of education does not exist, nor will it ever. Even under the current socialized system of schools, there are huge differences between schools in poor areas and schools in affluent areas. By all means society should strive for giving everyone a good education - but it should not strive to enforce an equal one.

I'd personally like to see some people get a barely acceptable education, while others get a great education... than to see almost everyone get an equally 'barely acceptable' education. Because as of right now, people basically become educated and successful in spite of their basic education - definitely not because of it. Something is very wrong with that.

I guess they shouldn't standardize the voting machines either. It would be horrible to fix the ones here in Florida through standardization. Especially if rich_state_01 doesn't get the machines that use speakers to read the ballot because it wasn't financially possible nation wide.

[Naethyn]

Excuse me but there are more ndrugs and weapons in schools these days than meets the eye. I for one would rather have my kid be searched along with some other gun-toting punk, rather than have that gun-toting punk shoot my fucking kid in the face for telling him to fuck off or something.

The world is not the same as it used to be. Things are out of control worse than ever. I can't blame anyone but our own society for forgetting not God, but the basic principles on which our nation was founded.

Hell YES let's search these young punks who are bringing crack into the classrooms! How can anyone learn with poison being peer pressured right into their brains? And don't tell me that peer pressure doesn't exist because it does, and at all levels of age.

Hell YES I agree with searching anyone who walks into the halls of my child's learning center. Search them ALL.

If they don't like their rights being stripped form them, perhaps they should move to another country where the government doesn't exist so they can be shot in the face for crossing the street by more than just punk kids.

God forbid we crack down on your children and try to save their futures, maybe even their lives.

Power corrupts. Aboslute power corrupts aboslutely.
I remember a few teachers who would abuse unwarrented, random strip searches. I refuse to give unrestrainted power to those people.

[Spazz]

Yea garg your right. Lets make schools run just like jails. The kids will then be able to learn since getting your anus fingered isnt half as bad of a distraction as a kid who might have dope on him. I feel bad for your child that youd want them treated like an inmate day in and day out all in the name of there safety.

I dont know what planet you guys are living on but i went to school and it wasnt a violent war zone with kids with uzis and crack being openly sold. I see this school thing a lot like i see the post 9/11 world. People do fucked up shit BUT YOU CANT treat everyone like a criminal.

If they think a search is needed why dont they call the police.

[numatu]

Doesn't matter how much money is thrown at the current public education system; it ends up becoming all pork and bureaucracy. U.S. spends more on education than any country in the world, with the shittiest return. The amount of money wasted and not getting into the classroom is staggering. People running education bureaucracy know that if people had a choice in their education, their monopoly and sustinence would eventually dwindle -- as many people would choose to leave a system run so blatantly inefficient. I personally don't care for vouchers, because it's simply a band-aid solution to a much needed complete overhaul of education.

[Naethyn]

Doesn't matter how much money is thrown at the current public education system; it ends up becoming all pork and bureaucracy. U.S. spends more on education than any country in the world, with the shittiest return. The amount of money wasted and not getting into the classroom is staggering. People running education bureaucracy know that if people had a choice in their education, their monopoly and sustinence would eventually dwindle -- as many people would choose to leave a system run so blatantly inefficient. I personally don't care for vouchers, because it's simply a band-aid solution to a much needed complete overhaul of education.

Japanese Education System
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2150.html

The u.s. spends 52% of its budget on military. Since WWII Japan has not been able to make a formal military. Where do you think that money goes?

[Gidan]

Excuse me but there are more ndrugs and weapons in schools these days than meets the eye. I for one would rather have my kid be searched along with some other gun-toting punk, rather than have that gun-toting punk shoot my fucking kid in the face for telling him to fuck off or something.

The world is not the same as it used to be. Things are out of control worse than ever. I can't blame anyone but our own society for forgetting not God, but the basic principles on which our nation was founded.

Hell YES let's search these young punks who are bringing crack into the classrooms! How can anyone learn with poison being peer pressured right into their brains? And don't tell me that peer pressure doesn't exist because it does, and at all levels of age.

Hell YES I agree with searching anyone who walks into the halls of my child's learning center. Search them ALL.

If they don't like their rights being stripped form them, perhaps they should move to another country where the government doesn't exist so they can be shot in the face for crossing the street by more than just punk kids.

God forbid we crack down on your children and try to save their futures, maybe even their lives.

Your children must be so proud to have a mother who thinks their constitutional rights are not important enough to uphold. What other rights are you willing to allow others to take away from your children? Maybe they should remove the 1st amendmant rights from them as well, hell that way they cant even complain about it.

[Lyion]

So, do you think complete first amendment rights should be allowed in public schools, Gidan?

[Ginzburgh]

Strip searches wouldn't really change anything. If I was a kid and I was planning on killing someone in my school with a gun or a knife, I'd stash the weapon in my car or somewhere else outside. Go get it when I'm ready to do the deed then run into school blasting. I don't see how a strip search would thwart that. And if a kid has a gun on him and he's ready to kill someone with it, how do you think the kid will react when a teacher tells him to remove all of his clothing?

Why not just metal detectors?

[Spazz]

Yes.

Why shouldnt students have the right to free speech while at school afterall it is where they spend there entire day.

[Diekan]

Children have no rights - other than to life. THAT'S one of the biggest problems with this country and why it's going straight down the shitter... 13 year olds walking around with cell phones and staying out on the street till 11 pm because they have the "right" to do so - stupid soccor moms who think that sitting down and "discussing" with a six year old why they shouldn't have a tantrum in the middle of the store when they don't get the box of cookies - instead of popping that ass.

Again, children have no rights. Except to be treated with dignity (e.g not being sold as slaves, made to live homeless, etc) and to be alive.

[Yamori]

I guess they shouldn't standardize the voting machines either. It would be horrible to fix the ones here in Florida through standardization. Especially if rich_state_01 doesn't get the machines that use speakers to read the ballot because it wasn't financially possible nation wide.

what

Try rephrasing that analogy in a way that has some vague ties to the subject at hand.

[Gidan]

Where in the constitution does it say that you have to be 18 for it to apply? Should a student be granted their first amendmant rights in school, Hell yes they should. A family should not have to choose between their childs rights and their education.


Let me ask these questions.

Does this apply to public universities as well?
Does it apply to the teachers?
Does it apply to that 1 in a million 40 year old highschool student?
Does it apply to elementry school?
Maybe they should have stip searched that child who was suspeneded for bringing a squirt gun.
Can we imprison HS students without charges or a trial? They are minors and not protected by the constitution and all.

What rights do minors have because they are under some arbitrary age that some people in a room somewhere decided makes you an adult.

When does a person earn the right to be protected by the constitution?



How about this situation.

This law is passed. A student is searched under this law in his school. The results of that search result in him being tried in court. Can that court still try him as an adult? If they do, is the evidence from that search still admisable in court?


As for children having no rights at all. If a child has no rights, then how can a child be tried in court as an adult? If you are not willing to give them rights because of their age, you need to stick to that when punishing them.