rofl what a fuxing asstard

[Ginzburgh]

Yeah, you'll get the bill later, and it may be an astronomical amount

And you think that's better? So what does that do to the elderly or the poor who can't afford healthcare to begin with? It puts them in an even worse situation.

[Arlos]

But that's the thing, having that bill hanging over your head can fuck you for a very long time. Wage garnishment, screwed credit rating, etc. etc. etc. Why should someone who is legitimately sick and can't afford insurance have to go through that just to get seen by a doctor? I'm not even discussing welfare cases here, there's 10s of millions of people working full time at good jobs who can't afford insurance, and more and more employers aren't providing it because it costs too much.

That's just not right, it's not. We NEED some kind of universal health care system. Our current system is totally out of whack. My dad has been involved in the health care field since 1970. He said all he's seen happen over the last 40 years is levels of care and availability of care go way down while the costs have gone way up. It's sad to think the situation was better 40 years ago than it is now, desptie all of the medical advances since then.

SOMETHING needs to get done, and any politician that has a realistic plan for making it happen is going to get my very careful attention. That's one reason why I am willing to give the Governator a chance, for his promises to do it unilaterally in CA.

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

I never understood why your health is something that should be tied to your wealth.

[Narrock]

But that's the thing, having that bill hanging over your head can fuck you for a very long time. Wage garnishment, screwed credit rating, etc. etc. etc. Why should someone who is legitimately sick and can't afford insurance have to go through that just to get seen by a doctor? I'm not even discussing welfare cases here, there's 10s of millions of people working full time at good jobs who can't afford insurance, and more and more employers aren't providing it because it costs too much.

That's just not right, it's not. We NEED some kind of universal health care system. Our current system is totally out of whack. My dad has been involved in the health care field since 1970. He said all he's seen happen over the last 40 years is levels of care and availability of care go way down while the costs have gone way up. It's sad to think the situation was better 40 years ago than it is now, desptie all of the medical advances since then.

SOMETHING needs to get done, and any politician that has a realistic plan for making it happen is going to get my very careful attention. That's one reason why I am willing to give the Governator a chance, for his promises to do it unilaterally in CA.

-Arlos

I won't disagree that health care costs are out of control. Part of that problem is the pharmaceudical (sp?) companies charging outrageous fees for drugs. We pay enough in taxes. Look at your friggin paycheck. Can you really afford to give the government even more than you already give? I can't, and neither can millions of other Americans. What we need is for the governing body overseeing health care to pull their heads out of their asses and stop misappropriating tax funds.

My dad had to go to the hospital a couple years ago, and we looked at the itemized statement from the hospital. $15 for 1 fucking pill. $1100 for an ambulance ride to the hospital... the ridiculousness goes on and on. Fix these kinds of greed, not raise taxes.

[Arlos]

When I was back making what I did, yes, I would've been willing to pay more taxes. Also, please realize that depending on how MUCH extra taxes are required, you might actually end up making MORE money than you do now, if your employer currently offers health insurance. Remember, your employer is paying that several hundred bucks a month into insurance for you. You learn how much they're paying really quick if you get laid off and go to make COBRA payments on your own, since there YOU have to pay those monthly costs now, and they're not cheap.

Now, imagine we have universal health care, and employers don't NEED to pay that cost. They could pass those dollars directly back to their employees, or smart ones would do at least most of it. Now, I dunno how much extra taxes would be required, but I can be pretty damn sure it won't amount to $200 a month, which is likely what your current health care payments are costing your employers. Give that money to you directly, and I can be pretty sure you'll have more in your pocket, regardless of what the tax costs are for universal coverage.

Ultimately, there is no way to fix that "greed" that you talk about, short of the government telling health care firms what they can and cannot charge. Somehow, I doubt you're for that level of governmental interference in what is effectively private enterprise. The hospitals, etc. charge that much because they have a monopoly product, and they know we have no choice but to pay them, or get our proxies, the insurance companies to do so. Ultimately, the insruance companies are a HUGE component of the problem as well as the health care providers and the pharmaceutical companies.

Honestly, the government really doesn't oversee health care like they used to. Back in the 70s and even 80s, there was much closer governmental control over health care. There was an agency, called the Health Systems Agency (my dad was deputy director for Arizona and head director for Kansas in that agency), that controlled who could build hospitals, where they could build them, and regulated how many beds hosptials had. That helped to keep the lid on costs, but it was dismantled during Reagan's presidency, and no longer exists. So, there's no agency to misappropriate funds...

-Arlos

[10sun]

Get catastrophe insurance. Deductible of $5k is $20 a month for me. Anything less than that can be handled.

[Narrock]

I'm still not excited about having to foot the bill for little illegal Julio who's mother takes him to the hospital every time he has a sniffle. Let me ask you this, Arlos... Why should you or I pay for somebody else's health care?

[Lyion]

I never understood why your health is something that should be tied to your wealth.

I don't understand someone who takes a risky operation can sue for 80 million dollars in damages when it doesn't work out properly, thus screwing everyone elses costs, either. A big problem is the health industry generates more revenue for lawyers than doctors.

Cap the costs. Cap the regulations. Disallow the huge ludicrous lawyer fees which are at the crux of our current costs. Then provide basic care for everyone. Problem solved.

The thing is some want to do one, but not the other. Won't work, sorry.

[Zanchief]

Cap the costs. Cap the regulations. Disallow the huge ludicrous lawyer fees which are at the crux of our current costs. Then provide basic care for everyone. Problem solved.

I agree completely.

[Arlos]

Because we can? (or, well, I could once and one day soon will be able to again.) Isn't helping out those less fortunate than you supposedly a christian virtue? From my ethos, good works you do will come back to you threefold (just as bad things you do will do the same), but even apart from that, I can empathize with people, and I know how frantic parents get if their kid is really sick, and can only imagine how bad it is for them when they CAN'T have their kid seen and he just keeps getting worse....

In any case, isn't that what societies are supposed to be for? Helping everyone who's part of it who wants to to survive and thrive, under the belief that all of us pulling together is stronger than each of us apart? How does an attitude of "Well, I've got mine so fuck you" foster a greater sense of community among our fellow citizens? Who is to say that you might not need help yourself someday when you're old and alone? Wouldn't you hope there was some way in place to get help if something catastrophic happened beyond your means to fix it yourself? If everyone is just "looking out for number one" and nothing else, society breaks down. period.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

This thread is starting to reek of Socialism.

[Arlos]

So what? Don't let blind fear of "ism's" blind you. Borrowing an idea from an ideology doesn't mean we need to adopt all of the rest of its ideas. It IS possible to borrow good ideas from other ideologies and groups and adapt them to our own society and needs.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

And another thing Arlos... I cannot afford to pay more in taxes. I'm sure if it came right down to it, and new taxes were implemented, I'd have to make the adjustments to my lifestyle. But, since you played the Christian card, I'll have you know that I do give to charity. I give regularly to the Make-A-Wish foundation, and the tithe I give to my church uses a large percentage of that money to go to specific charities in my community and abroad. So please do me a favor and don't say that I'm being greedy because I don't want to pay for other people's health care. I do a lot already for other people, and strangers at that.

[Narrock]

So what? Don't let blind fear of "ism's" blind you. Borrowing an idea from an ideology doesn't mean we need to adopt all of the rest of its ideas. It IS possible to borrow good ideas from other ideologies and groups and adapt them to our own society and needs.

-Arlos

That's true, but I see massive abuse potential.

[Zanchief]

But you see Mindia you'd be paying for your health care too.

[Arlos]

I wasn't only referring just to you, Mindia. You and I both know that there are millions of Christians out there who DON'T donate like you are, yes?

And again, remember how much your employer is currently paying monthly for your insurance. I'd be willing to bet (based on my experience at COBRA payments) that it's on the order of 200 a month. I am 99.99% sure you'd have more in your pocket every month if YOU got that $200 a month directly, despite the extra taxes that would be charged to pay for health care.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

I wasn't only referring just to you, Mindia. You and I both know that there are millions of Christians out there who DON'T donate like you are, yes?

And again, remember how much your employer is currently paying monthly for your insurance. I'd be willing to bet (based on my experience at COBRA payments) that it's on the order of 200 a month. I am 99.99% sure you'd have more in your pocket every month if YOU got that $200 a month directly, despite the extra taxes that would be charged to pay for health care.

-Arlos

Yes, I'm sure there are lots of Christians who go to church to worship, but who do not tithe for whatever reason (can't afford to tithe, are just greedy, etc.).

Yes, your scenario sounds good on paper, or pixelated in this case :P but that would be in a perfect world. Do you really really think it would go down like that?

[Tossica]

Eliminate insurance companies all together and the problem is solved.

[Snero]

Yes, your scenario sounds good on paper, or pixelated in this case :P but that would be in a perfect world. Do you really really think it would go down like that?

thats how it works just about everywhere but the states, the other systems are not perfect but something like this can work and for a hell of a lot less money then is currently being paid

[Lyion]

Eliminate insurance companies all together and the problem is solved.

Sure, we'd just run out of Doctors when they were all sued to oblivion without the coverage to protect them.

Tort reform is equally, if not moreso, needed than insurance reform.

Sadly, our medical industry costs are all related to things other than treatment and service, which is at the crux of the problem.

[Harrison]

Something is fucking wrong, I'm agreeing with Arlos a lot today.

[Tossica]

Eliminate insurance companies all together and the problem is solved.

Sure, we'd just run out of Doctors when they were all sued to oblivion without the coverage to protect them.

Tort reform is equally, if not moreso, needed than insurance reform.

Sadly, our medical industry costs are all related to things other than treatment and service, which is at the crux of the problem.

They wouldn't be sued to oblivion because lawyers would stop taking the ridiculous cases and you'd end up with winnable cases against truly negligent doctors.