Ron Paul campaign progress report

[Lyion]

My post had nothing to do with you, personally, Arlos, and merely was about people and their ability to have discourse in an open minded fashion.

It also had nothing to do with the Marines, that was just a point that it isn't one side that is close minded and angst ridden in regards to wanting their ways. I do think that's mostly on the fringes and the majority of people have respect for different opinions, although partisanship seems to be spilling over more nowadays.

Open mindedness comes from respect, and all one can do is look at the progressive ways and means and the non progressive ones, and especially the level of vitriol from some and make up their own mind.

[Arlos]

There is at least as much vitriol from the right as their is from the left, probably more. Look at Falwell blaming 9/11 on homosexuals and "pagans". Look at people like Rush, Coulter, Hannity, etc. etc. etc. Need I go on providing examples? I think not.

So oh no, in no way whatsoever is vitriol and close-mindedness in any way a unique feature of the left. I don't even deny that there are plenty of close-minded leftists, but the angry close-minded bigots on the right are much louder, and certainly better organized. I hardly think Coulter's ways and means, say, scream respect and open-mindedness.....

-Arlos

[Narrock]

Berkeley is an embarrassment to, and a thorn in the side of, the San Francisco bay area (with the exception of UC Berkeley of course). End of story.

[ClakarEQ]

I don't want to tangent this disucssion further but I do not believe open minded comes from respect or that mutual respect is even a component.

Your willingness to hear someone speak, and seriously consider what is being said, to challenge your own thoughts against the thoughts of another, etc, respect is not needed. The outcome will probably not change, and obviously the passion you have on a given topic and all sorts of things come into play and yes mutual respect obviously can help sway ones thought from side to side, sure.

It is similiar to what you (Lyion) said, how you were brought up, how open your relationships have been from birth to grave, etc.

[Lyion]

I disagree with your post in that you do not equate respect with actually listening to someone's point of view and trying to see things their way. For me, that is exactly what respect is.

Respect would be a Sam Donaldson/George Will discussion. Unfortunately, too many people seem to have moved to the method of Rush Limbaugh or Keith Olbermann and have no respect for anyone who doesn't see the world in their purview, and their goal is just to attack and slander. The ends justifies the means.

Sadly, one can look even in this thread and see the same nasty, rhetorical hate filled slander that does nothing but prevent good discourse. It's interesting how some ignore that when it comes from people they agree with.

[ClakarEQ]

For me, and I assumed about everyone, respect is earned, it is not just given freely. This isn't an innocent until proven guilty thing. I don't by default respect some stranger whom I've never met, that isn't to say I woudln't be reseptive to an opinion or statement they make.

I have absolutly no respect for our president, not a drop. But I still listen to what he has to say, I can even agree with some of what is said. I have no respect for Rush Limbaugh(sp), but again, I have listened to him speak, and not every word out of his mouth is complete shit (99% yeah j/k).

See for me, you are voiceing a close-minded opinion, you won't listen to anyone without first having respect. This means one of two things, either you give respect to all until you have reason to not have respect and at that moment you become close minded to anything said, OR you only "hear" people whom you've recieved a level of respect from and are recipricating.

I'm sure this isn't the case.

[Lyion]

For me, and I assumed about everyone, respect is earned, it is not just given freely. This isn't an innocent until proven guilty thing. I don't by default respect some stranger whom I've never met, that isn't to say I woudln't be reseptive to an opinion or statement they make.

Respect in this regard is more so about courtesy and civility, not about anything deeper. Civility should not have to be earned.

It appears many think along those lines. It's why so many threads are laden with pejoratives and slander, and lack any of the good graces.

What I call respect I guess I should rename manners, and many are lacking in that regard in their vitriol. It's sad to me, but civility seems to be going away rapidly.

I have absolutly no respect for our president, not a drop. But I still listen to what he has to say, I can even agree with some of what is said. I have no respect for Rush Limbaugh(sp), but again, I have listened to him speak, and not every word out of his mouth is complete shit (99% yeah j/k).

That's fine, but there is disagreement based on reasoning and even bias, and then there is hate filled rhetorical nastiness. The latter equates to me someone who is close minded. To some that's free speech and someone who should be admired. To me, that's someone with no class who does not want discourse, but just propaganda. The amount of silliness posted and repeated that is blatantly false makes me wonder how one deems those people open minded.

See for me, you are voiceing a close-minded opinion, you won't listen to anyone without first having respect. This means one of two things, either you give respect to all until you have reason to not have respect and at that moment you become close minded to anything said, OR you only "hear" people whom you've recieved a level of respect from and are recipricating.

No, I try to ignore those who come across with nastiness or act or post in a childish and petulant manner, and lack the good graces to see anything or discuss anything they disagree with.

I have plenty of discussions with those I disagree with. I try to ignore those who are attack dogs filled with personal hatred and lack the civility to discuss matters in a polite and open matter.

I think you confuse open mindedness with something a bit less rationale, personally.

[Zanchief]

I'm biting my tongue so deep I think I need stitches.

[ClakarEQ]

Lyion, civility != respect. But if you have respect for the person you will be civil.

I agree civility is free and all should have and receive it.

Civility however is going away and we best all get used to it. The loss of civility is just another component of our downward spiral that is what we live in today. The reason is we just don't have time to be civil, I want a fucking answer and I want it now attitude is everywhere, from the presidential chair down to our kids classroom.

No, I try to ignore those who come across with nastiness or act or post in a childish and petulant manner, and lack the good graces to see anything or discuss anything they disagree with.

Yet these nasty petulant folks are the people whom have made some of the largest changes to our society. I'd go so far to say that many movements we've had in this country was founded by a "perceived" nasty petulant person by a majority at that time.

Also so you know, I not trying to attack you or any of that shit, frankly I find most of our disagreements, as I find any disagreement a learning experience. I apologize if I came off directly calling you close-minded, it wasn't the intent.

Perhaps my interpertation regarding the comment you made on Obama was exagerated.

I'm off to post something completely different now

[Jay]

I actually do respect GWB but that is only because he sits in the presidential seat. I might not really agree with 99.8 percent of what he does but regardless he is still the nation's leader and not having our respect just makes him suck more and more.

[Lyion]

I didn't take anything hostile from your post. In some regards I am close minded. However, that isn't due to me not looking at things from other points of view, but more so it's based on my personal beliefs and principles and those being unyielding.

I find abortion to be abominable, and try as I might I cannot grasp the support for late term or partial birth abortion. I don't disparage or slander those with different points of view, however, or make wild claims, though. To you that might be close minded, but to me that is civil discourse and looking at others points, but comprehending why I believe the way I do.

I agree we have become a fast food, instant gratification society, often not cognizant of the law or even with a care about facts, just promoting our talking points or views, and demeaning those who disagree with us.

Many people have belief structures in place, but that does not stop some from discussing issues, and not disparaging others.

[ClakarEQ]

I don't think your statement is close minded. Close minded in that regard would be a complete in-ability to see why someone would or could ever be pro-choice.

I'm pro-choice personally. But I am not "for" late term aborations and am really only "ok" with pre-first tri-mester abortions. However if my choice is all or none, I'm trapped and side with all. Not because I'm "for" it mind you, but because I do not feel it is societies place to force any person to bear a child aginst their will, similiarly I can appreciate the other side that the "child" is a prisoner without representation.

[Naethyn]

I blame world of warcraft.