Jury orders rancher to pay $77,804 to illegal aliens

[Tikker]

Some 6 year old kid sneaks into my back yard to steal an orange off of my tree, am I within my rights to pull out a shotgun and blow him away?

that actually happened in BC i think (it was apples tho I believe)

there's a tape on the interwebs somewhere where the guy phones 911, and tells the cops to come get the kid he shot trespassing in his yard

you can hear the kid moaning in the background, and his friend crying (they were 11ish I think?)

[Drem]

god

[Haylo]

Lol whatever Harrison.

[Diekan]

They leave trash all over the place.

Littering is a capital crime now?


Some 6 year old kid sneaks into my back yard to steal an orange off of my tree, am I within my rights to pull out a shotgun and blow him away? How about if it's an adult? After all, they're trespassing and stealing, right? They're on my property! Can I run out there with a dog and a gun show them a fake badge, hold them prisoner for hours, and threaten their lives while I wait for cops to arrive?

Somehow, I don't think so. Yet that's pretty much exactly what this guy did.

Mindia, I am most disappointed. When was the last time I personally insulted you? When have I been anything but nice to you for ages and ages? Yet you out of the blue come at me with personal insults?

-Arlos

'What if' they had kicked his door in and were threating his life - would have you a problem if he killed them in self-defense?

[ClakarEQ]

Destroying ones property does not justify the property owner to be jury judge and executioner. This isn't the old west.

Why do folks get so pissed at someone else when they want a better life?

Perhaps the folks that "hate" illegals should read more about where you came from, how you got here, and what we did to make it all happen.

If your life was shit, and you had a chance to make it better, even though you had to break the law, would you do it?

If you had to break the law to feed your family, would you do that?

All these people are just trying to "make it". They are unable to make it where they are, they know they can at least have a chance to make it someplace else, good for them that they at least try, even risking their own life, for just one chance at a better one.

Unlike a good chunk of our "own" people who scam the system, find ways to screw other folks for money, etc etc. And before folks start saying "O but illegals are a drain, they cost us money, etc" That is a bunch of BS and I have yet to read any fact that proves illegals cost more than they provide, NOT ONE tidbit proves any truth to this "zerging" of illegals "killing" our own jobs, costing all this money, etc etc.

The biggest cost IMO is the fucking fence and resources we continue to flush in attempts to stop them. Do people not realize folks will risk their life for something better. You will NEVER stop a person like that. You could almost put them in the same bucket as terrorists regarding their determination.

EDIT
Deikan, I would have no problem with someone killing another in self defense, when it comes down to you (as in you, or any loved one) or them.

[Tuggan]

That's one of the most idiotic posts i've yet to read from you Clakar. You're basically saying go ahead and break any laws put in place, if you can better your own life by doing so?

Does this apply to the guys hustling, and slinging drugs to "feed their families"? Or the guys that mug people, carjack, break into homes, etc... for extra money to "improve their lives"?

and what exactly do illegal immigrants provide? Aside from cheap exploitable labor that does screw the rest of us over? They don't pay into the system that protects them. They commit crimes just like everyone else, they get hurt and require medical aide just like everyone else. Yet they put nothing into the system to help PAY for the cost of them being here. The large majority of the money made is sent back home to improve the life, and economy from where ever the fuck they came from.

As for my family? They came here legally. They got treated like garbage, and scraped their way up from the bottom. They adjusted to the culture already here. They made no demands. They expected nothing.

Fuck anyone that comes into this country illegally. If I had my way, it would open season all along that border. No need for a fence, bullets are cheap.

[Diekan]

That's one of the most idiotic posts i've yet to read from you Clakar. You're basically saying go ahead and break any laws put in place, if you can better your own life by doing so?

Does this apply to the guys hustling, and slinging drugs to "feed their families"? Or the guys that mug people, carjack, break into homes, etc... for extra money to "improve their lives"?

and what exactly do illegal immigrants provide? Aside from cheap exploitable labor that does screw the rest of us over? They don't pay into the system that protects them. They commit crimes just like everyone else, they get hurt and require medical aide just like everyone else. Yet they put nothing into the system to help PAY for the cost of them being here. The large majority of the money made is sent back home to improve the life, and economy from where ever the fuck they came from.

As for my family? They came here legally. They got treated like garbage, and scraped their way up from the bottom. They adjusted to the culture already here. They made no demands. They expected nothing.

Fuck anyone that comes into this country illegally. If I had my way, it would open season all along that border. No need for a fence, bullets are cheap.

I stopped reading his posts a long time ago - I just skip over them - they rarely make a point.

[ClakarEQ]

Tuggan, I was trying to show that most of these illegal's are doing what they're doing to get a better life and they will risk their life to that end. I didn't once say it is "ok", I said I don't blame them

As for muggers, robbers, etc no I wouldn't say that is remotely the same, they are hurting someone else to achieve their ends. Understand the context of this thread and keep it along those lines.

As for the screwing the rest of us over, that has NEVER been proven. Sure they're cheap labor, sure companies that employ them do it to save buck and maybe to not employee a higher paid US worker, I'm sure that happens. I wasn't trying to insinuate that every illegal is "ok" but at the same time, not every illegal is "bad" either.

Who in your family was shot or maybe killed, or threatened at gun point when they came here?

Another point I was trying to make is we were the illegal's. We broke laws to get here, we broke our OWN laws, we lied and killed repeatedly to get what we have and I'm talking all within the US borders of today and frankly not all that long ago. Yet when the same happens to "us", O hells no, o shit we gotta kill em, we gotta stop em at all costs, o hells no what was good for us is all ok but no no no , not you, not for you guys.

It is good to know you value your own humankind so low though, I won't bring up relgious views, well beyond that comment anyway . You will not stop the influx no matter how hard you try, no fence is big enough, no bullet powerful enough, no law, no nothing.

You have your location as MI, not sure how long you lived here but perhaps you should review even how MI came to be, the lying and killing, the law breaking, the cheating, sure 200 years is a long time, but still . . .

I just have to laugh at our own arrogance, and let me tell you, there is no one on this planet more arrogate and self rightous than a US citizen.

[ClakarEQ]

I stopped reading his posts a long time ago - I just skip over them - they rarely make a point.

Just put me on ignore, and save you some scroll time /grouphug

[Tuggan]

The majority of your post makes absolutely no sense, so I won't even bother to address it. I don't know if you're talking early 1900's and mass immigration, or the creation of our country.

If you want "proof" as to how illegals are screwing the rest of us over... look into the medical expenses provided to illegal immigrants. Look into how many illegal immigrants are in US prisons. They are a huge drain on resources and services that should be provided to the people who belong here, and have paid into the system for years. You must not have bothered to look very hard if you can't find anything regarding problems caused by the influx of illegal immigrants. That, or you just keep your blinders on and think you're some kind of enlightened individual cause you welcome everyone with open arms like you live in some kinda rainbrow bright utopia.

and I'm definitely not some "CLOSE THE BORDERS RAH RAH RAH" type of guy. The thing that makes America what is is the multitude of different cultures and ethnic groups. I support immigration 100%, but if you can't follow the laws and rules in place to come to my country legally, stay the fuck out.

[ClakarEQ]

I'm not trying to be some preacher and I figured your shoot them comment was sarcastic, fair enough. The deal is the immigration laws are WAY different then when we had mass immigration.

Ever since 9/11 the immigration laws have been and continue to be more and more difficult. There are limits and conditions all over the place. New laws are being created constantly for employers to comply with, you know bigger GOV more red tape, MORE reasons to find holes or just risk it.

Prisons are fucked without illegal's anyway we imprison more "citizens" then any other country on the planet.

I didn't search, but in that blink of an eye, I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_i ... ted_States
I've not read it all but the first few bits imply illegal's create wealth for our country, did you hear that CREATE WEALTH for our country. NOT COST US SHIT.

This is only one source and could be biased, I'm not attempting to say it is "definitive".

So, what do you guys say now?

[Tuggan]

I say you should keep reading your own link. Like how there is next to no information about how much we have to pay for these rabbits that shit out a new farm tool every 9 months. Or the $11,919,900,000 to educate them.

I also say any stats skewed in favor how illegal immigrants have a positive impact on the economy are bullshit. Stats say that there are over 12million illegals in the United States. Yet they only get tax information on a couple million? So in the most basic of terms, what I get from that is 10 of 12 million only contribute to our economy by buying shit. I guess you could consider them working for less, so they lower the cost of some things a benefit. Personally I see that as further eroding the quality of life for all of us, the illegal working for next to nothing included.

[ClakarEQ]

I agree the numbers don't wash out well and that is why I said in my other post, no proof is available that illegals cost more than they contribute and it appears that is still the case.

Even after reviewing the whole article the 12million to educate them is "chump change" of sorts regarding the potential of contribution but again, the numbers are questionable at best, however they can swing into the red or black.

Also, those rabbits you so kindly put it are actually US citizens (or I think anyway). I thought any child born in this country by default is a US citizen, I don't know if that still holds true though. Assuming so . . . 18 years later those rabbits become tax payers just like you and me or are you saying they too should be treated as "less" than us?

[Naethyn]

Put yourselves in this guy's position. He makes his money off of cattle. That's how he supports his family. These people from another country are illegally entering his land. Destroying his property. Killing his cattle. And threatening his family. Sure, it may not be the people who won this lawsuit who did all the things I just listed. But put yourself in his position. The local or federal government wont help him.

What would you do?

[Tuggan]

You're missing 3 zeros on your "chump change". I guess considering the way congress is throwing around money these days, any amount of money can seem like chump change. I still don't think 12billion dollars is anything to scoff at, especially considering it's 12billion dollars that we shouldn't have to be paying.

Another bit of money worth considering Clakar. Estimates on the amount of cash that is sent back to Mexico/Central America range from as low as 5billion to as high as 45billion dollars. That figure represents two things. 1) Money not being spent at the local and federal level, which would multiply itself 10 fold by creating more supply/demand/jobs and 2) Jobs documented legal immigrants, and Americans should have. America already has a massive unskilled and uneducated labor force. We don't need Mexico's too.

[Harrison]

BUT BUT BUT TWO HUNDRED YEARS AGO BLAH FUCKING BLAH

[Narrock]

They leave trash all over the place.

Littering is a capital crime now?


Some 6 year old kid sneaks into my back yard to steal an orange off of my tree, am I within my rights to pull out a shotgun and blow him away? How about if it's an adult? After all, they're trespassing and stealing, right? They're on my property! Can I run out there with a dog and a gun show them a fake badge, hold them prisoner for hours, and threaten their lives while I wait for cops to arrive?

Somehow, I don't think so. Yet that's pretty much exactly what this guy did.

Mindia, I am most disappointed. When was the last time I personally insulted you? When have I been anything but nice to you for ages and ages? Yet you out of the blue come at me with personal insults?

-Arlos

I didn't attack you personally, Arlos. Just about your political party. hehe

[Arlos]

'What if' they had kicked his door in and were threating his life - would have you a problem if he killed them in self-defense?

Of course not. If you are honestly in fear for your life, then certainly you have the right to self defense. I have never argued against that at all, in any of our gun threads or any other similar thread. But that's not this guy's situation though, now is it?

As for Naethyn:

I can sympathize with the guy's issues. But past events don't give you a right to vigilantism against people who had no part in committing the previous crimes. Say I had a sister who got raped by an Italian guy. Would I be justified in shooting other Italians on sight? Of course not. If he caught the people who did kill his cattle in the act, then certainly the situation would be different, and he would be far more within the law to confront them in an aggressive fashion. But people whose only known crime is to be wandering across the wrong field, to threaten their lives and hold them prisoner? Then, on top of that, to impersonate a cop with a fake badge? No, that's beyond the bounds. Certainly not as far beyond the bounds as the suggestions made here to just kill them and hide the bodies, but still, he went too far.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

Impersonating an officer is the only crime this man committed.

It's unfortunate that shitbags in this country allow things like this to occur.

[brinstar]

you missed terroristic threats and false imprisonment but thanks for trying

them's felonies-- dude's lucky he's not being tried in criminal court

[Nusk]

yes actually, its called citizens arrest and you have EVERY right to hold an illegal trespasser till the authorities arrive

to me illegal aliens are the same thing as a invasion by a foreign entity.. they are armed and dangerous so yes. he could of shot them and screamed self defense

[Arlos]

Um, where, anywhere, does it say they are armed?

-Arlos

[Gidan]

yes actually, its called citizens arrest and you have EVERY right to hold an illegal trespasser till the authorities arrive

to me illegal aliens are the same thing as a invasion by a foreign entity.. they are armed and dangerous so yes. he could of shot them and screamed self defense

By Arizona law he did not meet the requirements of a citizens arrest. Just because he has been wronged in the past does not mean he has the right to punish other people for that wrong.

A private person may make an arrest:

1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony.

2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.

Being an illegal alien does not hold a large enough penalty to qualify.

A breach of the peace was a common-law offense, but is presently governed by statute in many states. It is frequently defined as constituting a form of Disorderly Conduct. Examples include using abusive or obscene language in a public place, resisting a lawful arrest, and trespassing or damaging property when accompanied by violence.

Since the only violence was on his part, he did not have the right to detain them. Based on this, he was the one breaking the law in detaining them.

[Lueyen]

In questioning his legal standing to detain people until law enforcement shows up, you all might want to consider that this was not the first incident, and that Roger Barnett has been doing this for years. He has yet to have been brought up on charges by any governmental agency either federal or state. He has been sued multiple times in civil court. He has "lost one other case" in that he had a judgment against him. This case in particular was called a loss of the plaintiffs because the judgment awarded was a pittance in comparison to the amount being sued for (as I recall it was for around 30 million).

Frankly I think a state or federal case of law violation could be brought against Barnett, as trespassing is at worst a level 3 misdemeanor and a citizen's arrest generally requires a felony for valid justification. The fact of the matter is though that border patrol has responded to and apprehended around 10 to 11 thousand illegal aliens held by Barnett when he or his family has caught and detained them. Obviously if he is guilty of breaking the law in simple apprehension and detention until law enforcement arrives, law enforcement has turned a blind eye. In reality if any state or federal agency were to bring him up on charges, I'm sure a counter suit would be issued for the failure of the US federal government to do it's job in protecting American citizens and their property from foreign encroachment, in other words state and federal agencies don't want to open up this can of worms.

[Gidan]

He has actually been sued on multiple occations and lost, each time he was sued by American citizens that he had either detained or threatened. The real catch is he doesn't actually own most of the land, he is leasing it from the state. The land is not for his sole use and as such, he can not even claim trespassing on that land. You have to remeber the vast majority of the people who he is doing this to are illegals and you are not going to see many of them suing him.

Honestly at this point, I am shocked he is still alive. At some point, one of those hunting groups he does this to is going to shoot back in self defense.